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I-War!


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#21 Lost Dragon

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Posted 15 February 2017 - 08:42 AM

@Teddy:

 

It's hard for me to define exactly what i 'miss' about the Jaguar these days...

 

I love watching things like The Jag Bar on YT, listening to Shinto's podcast's on it's games as both of these are not only fantastic trips down memory lane for myself, but treat the format in a totally unbiased manner.

 

Plus it's really interesting to see how people unfamilar with the Jaguar react to it, plus to hear of just what gamers are willing to forgive.

 

Shinto also does fantastic in depth research and it's been great to hear the new info he has found or have findings confirmed by sources he contacted, regarding Lost Jaguar games-still so much in the way of unanswered questions, so i'll always have a keen interest in the 'scene' in hope that more information yet comes to light.

 

As for buying back into the Jaguar scene as a gamer..not going to happen, for a number of reasons.

 

Partly due to my purging of material items, yet another load of books, DVDS, few games went off to charity shops on Monday..

 

But mainly due to the absurd prices stuff is going for...

 

I'd love to spend quality time on Iron S. II on Jag CD, along with Battlemorph, Skyhammer etc, but at those prices? hell no....

 

Plus, i'm sorry, but i just cannot get my head around why people are so keen to see more ST/Amiga games get conversions to Jaguar, espically the coin-op conversions.

 

R-Type, Bubble Bobble, Gauntlet II? erm, just pick up a cheap PS1 console and R-Types, Bubble Bobble Rainbow Islands Collection...or go generation after and get an Xbox and Taito collection for Bubble Bobble, Solomons Key out on Xbox retro comp,etc etc

 

NES had Gauntlet II, if you want 4 player Gauntlet Genesis Gauntlet 4, plus multi-tap and exclusive epic music...

Or try MAME on PC or G-Types etc.

Outrun:give me the Saturn or GBA version any day...

IK+ i had on PS1 also.

 

 

It seems very much a collectors market out there.


Edited by Lost Dragon, 15 February 2017 - 11:59 AM.

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#22 TeddyGermany

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Posted 15 February 2017 - 02:07 PM

I agree with you.

In one special point you are absolutely right: absurd prices. 1000€ for a Jag CD is disgusting.
But everyone on atari.io notice that you have a soft spot for the Jaguar and that dignifies you.
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#23 Lost Dragon

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 11:56 AM

:)

 

How does this sound?

 

My viewpoint regarding the Jaguar Scene as it were can pretty much be sumned up as follows:

 

I've always seen the Jaguar in a similar light to that of the Sega CD , both are unfairly maligned items of hardware, very powerful 2D based machines, introduced to the market at a time when the shift towards 3D on console had really started apon it's path...

 

Nintendo with SFX Chip MK 1+MK II, Sega with it's SVP, suddenly it all became about your systems polygon pushing power and then just how many texture-mapped polys your hardware could shift per second....

 

 

The fact that finally home hardware could really start to attempt to replicate things like Sega's Super Scaler coin-op hardware much much closer and bring things like Final Fight, massive sprites etc, into your home without the comprimises made on earlier home formats like the ST, Amiga, Genesis and SNES etc, was pretty much ignored.

 

And for all the good the chat on forums, podcasts, YT videos does indeed do, to try and showcase the true strengths of the hardware, for a true understanding, you simply do have to play the games and compare them to those on the rival systems of that time...

 

 

We can all wax on about untapped/ignored potential, unfinished games etc, but real proof of the pudding is what was commercially released at that time.

 

Now if your looking to get into the Jaguar market for the 1st time, even ignoring the 16 bit ports (which is a huge % of the Jaguar commercial release side of things), your looking at a hefty outlay to say the least....

 

 

You want to try things like Jaguar CD Hoverstrike U.L, I.S II, WTR, Battlesphere or cart games like Skyhammer (and don't want to go the repo cart route), best of bloody luck....

 

 

 

The Jaguar often simply prices itself out of the chance to be properly discovered as the collectors have pretty much proven you put even the most average of ST games on a Jaguar cart, sell it for $70+, you've a deal, so what chance of prices dropping for those merely curious to try the Jaguar?.



#24 BlackCatz40

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 07:10 PM

I have I-War for my Jag and have had it for over seventeen years. Completed the game, too. Fun game, but it needs work on the graphics, of course. But, needless to say, despite the visage of the game it plays quite well. I like it and I am sure it may have a following. But, bear in mind that the Jaguar is obscure and was under-marketed. It should have cheaply been upgraded to four megabytes of RAM or more instead of two. Better hardware and software support would have made the Jaguar a real beast to contend with. Did you know that third-party game developers for the Atari Falcon030 computer had 300+ titles ready to be converted for the Jag? It could have been easily done. But, Atari CEO Jack Tramiel put the kibosh on it, and that was part of the death knell of the Jag and, ultimately, Atari Corporation. We all know the rest of the story. However, one person has found a way to port Atari ST games to the Jaguar, as most of you already know, I am sure. So, by hook or by crook, I am sure someone will figure out how to port Falcon titles to the Jaguar. I am almost positive it is inevitable. But, people can learn Raptor BASIC+ from CJ. It is supposed to be easy to learn, but I am, alas, a noob and know really very little about game coding. So, that is another avenue for games to be released for the Jag.

 

Sorry for being long-winded. Atari games, however seemingly "obsolete" that they are, will still be my fave choice in gaming preference. I am just waxing passionate about it and, maybe, somewhat rambling on. No worries. Thanks for letting me share. :)


Edited by BlackCatz40, 06 April 2017 - 08:33 PM.

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#25 Lost Dragon

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 07:39 PM

Here in UK established coders like Bullfrog Productions Peter Molyneux were warning Atari from day 1 the Jaguar lacked the Ram to make PC conversions straight forward but like the abandoned Panther before it, Atari refused to believe their hardware was at fault.

Regarding Falcon conversions, wasn't Jaguar Ishar supposed to be a Falcon port? Seem to recall an interview stating something alone those lines a while back.

Jaguar suffered from enough Genesis,Amiga and SNES ports as it was, having 32 bit Falcon games running on a flagship 64 bit system wouldn't of done it any favours at the time, might well be a shot in the arm for it now though.

But if your looking at converting commercial titles, you either release them for free or you go the route Piko Interactive has, and legally aquire the rights and code, if your talking a physical release.

You can't just convert work that isn't yours, just because you can.

#26 BlackCatz40

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 07:40 PM

Here in UK established coders like Bullfrog Productions Peter Molyneux were warning Atari from day 1 the Jaguar lacked the Ram to make PC conversions straight forward but like the abandoned Panther before it, Atari refused to believe their hardware was at fault.

Regarding Falcon conversions, wasn't Jaguar Ishar supposed to be a Falcon port? Seem to recall an interview stating something alone those lines a while back.

Jaguar suffered from enough Genesis,Amiga and SNES ports as it was, having 32 bit Falcon games running on a flagship 64 bit system wouldn't of done it any favours at the time, might well be a shot in the arm for it now though.

But if your looking at converting commercial titles, you either release them for free or you go the route Piko Interactive has, and legally aquire the rights and code, if your talking a physical release.

You can't just convert work that isn't yours, just because you can.

Yes, Ishar III was coming for the Jag. It was released also for the 3DO.


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#27 BlackCatz40

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 07:43 PM

That is true. I would never really advocate piracy. No. But, there are people that have ported copyrighted titles to the Jag. I will not name names. So, Lost Dragon, you are correct on that statement. I am talking about making new home-brew games from scratch, of course. Plus, it would have helped to make commercial ports by the actual developers for the Jag, no doubt.


Edited by BlackCatz40, 06 April 2017 - 07:44 PM.

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#28 Lost Dragon

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 07:47 PM

http://justclaws.ata.../towerview.html

Gives an indication of how long a Falcon port to Jaguar might take or at least did in this case.

#29 BlackCatz40

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 07:48 PM

Thanks for the link. I will take a gander at this.


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#30 Lost Dragon

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 07:56 PM

Yep, I don't think we need name names with regards to who ported what from where to Jaguar, when they had no legal right to do so, or those who did total conversions they had no legal right to do or even finished off code they had no legal right to be in possession of..


Enough egos in Jaguar community as is who want websites and publications to cover and praise their work, with little or no regards for the morality if what they are doing, all I will say is, it has caused a lot if I'll feelings among the industry coders i have spoken to from the ST/Amiga era...

Homebrew of course is a totally different matter, but involves a lot more work, hence you don't see quite so much of it, it seems.

Maybe if the likes of Custodian and Xenon 2, both legally ported,sell well enough, more ST era ports will follow?

I know Piko has plans for Venus The Flytrap, has bought rights to Imagine back catalogue, Switchblade also acquired..

But which Falcon only games are worth considering?.

#31 BlackCatz40

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 08:16 PM

Yep, I don't think we need name names with regards to who ported what from where to Jaguar, when they had no legal right to do so, or those who did total conversions they had no legal right to do or even finished off code they had no legal right to be in possession of..


Enough egos in Jaguar community as is who want websites and publications to cover and praise their work, with little or no regards for the morality if what they are doing, all I will say is, it has caused a lot if I'll feelings among the industry coders i have spoken to from the ST/Amiga era...

Homebrew of course is a totally different matter, but involves a lot more work, hence you don't see quite so much of it, it seems.

Maybe if the likes of Custodian and Xenon 2, both legally ported,sell well enough, more ST era ports will follow?

I know Piko has plans for Venus The Flytrap, has bought rights to Imagine back catalogue, Switchblade also acquired..

But which Falcon only games are worth considering?.

Perhaps, you have a point about the Falcon ports. But, I would like to see more original, non-copyrighted work go into a home-brew title. Possibly, someone could really whip up something nice in Raptor BASIC+. I am sure that someday, somehow, someone will whip up a 3D engine for the Jag for home-brewers. I know it would be myriads of lines of code. But, one can dream, right? Thanks. :)


Edited by BlackCatz40, 06 April 2017 - 08:22 PM.

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#32 Video 61

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 08:56 PM

http://justclaws.ata.../towerview.html

Gives an indication of how long a Falcon port to Jaguar might take or at least did in this case.

 when atari was first developing the jaguar after dropping the panther, what i was told was that the unit was going to be sorta compatible with the falcon, so that the games when ported over, did not have to be extensively reprogrammed for a proprietary jag only unit. jack said no, he wanted a unit that no one could put games on, without going through atari license agreements. he feared developers could bypass atari, and have a working jag game converted from the falcon or ST. which in my mind would be awesome.

 by making the unit with out enough ram, and proprietary, it was title starved. and of course, that was the history of jacks atari. we see today, there are those clever enough, to see that there is some compatibility there, and port st games over to the jaguar anyways.

 they are not 64 bit, but nether was theme park or cannon fodder. i do not know how far atari went with this discussion of compatibility, it seemed not to have lasted very long, along with making the jag lynx compatible.


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#33 Lost Dragon

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Posted 07 April 2017 - 06:43 AM

:) I'm anything but a tech head, but my very limited understanding is the Falcon's DSP is far more powerful than that in the Jaguar, but Jaguar has it's own key advantages, hardware wise?, so would it be straight forward-osh to take tasks running on Falcon DSP and move them onto Jaguar specific hardware?.

 

I have been very impressed by DML's Falcon work on Quake 2, but that seems custom written for Falcon hardware with a lot more Ram than Jaguar has...so not sure what hurdles trying to do something similar on Jaguar would present?

 

I was once following the attempt to bring something along lines of 3DO Road Rash to the Jaguar, but rather than head in 1 fixed direction, that project seemed to spin wildly off into possibility of bringing a Wipeout type game to Jaguar and it seemed more technical chat than building anything that could be put out there, Game Engine wise, for someone to build a full game around.

 

The homebrew scene, Atari wise, has often struck me as a bit..'Elitist', but that seems part n parcel of the more unsavoury aspects of the wider Atari community, people wanting to keep material of all types to themselves, sadly more often than not.

 

 

In an ideal world, you could have people who've discovered the work around measures, texture-mapping cheats etc that commercial Jaguar coders from the day didn't have the luxury of finding, due to commercial deadlines, sharing ideas etcwith those commercial coders behind game engines such as those powering WTR, Skyhammer, Iron Solider 2 etc etc

 

 

But from what i've seen, people like Mike Diskett, Jonathan Court etc, UK coders who dare pop their head out and say i worked on....get shouted down by a few weak dogs barking.

 

Rebellion get slagged off based on C.Flag 2 and fact they hadn't watched the Alien/Predator films prior to developing the game-Erm, that's what Andrew Whittaker was on hand for, plus, hello? anyone played Konami's Aliens coin-op? or Sega's Alien 3:The Gun coin-op? not exactly faithful to the film.

 

 

Probe described as lazy for the Primal Rage CD port etc etc.

 

Fanboys with little attempt to understand the very harsh world of commercial development on a failed format, it's hard enough to get coders, artists to talk about Jaguar development as is.



#34 Lost Dragon

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Posted 07 April 2017 - 06:59 AM

@Video 61Jack's attitude seems to pre-empt that of Sony's with the PS2 and PS3 hardware, starve the damn things of Ram, make them as difficult as you can for developers to get the best from them, as you only wanted your selected 'Dream Team' developers onboard...

 

I remember talking to Peter C, from Audiogenic after reading old ST Format magazine quote from Peter saying how keen he was to start developing on Jaguar, Atari simply SNUBBED Audiogenic, saying they were only interested in the Big Name publishers...utter madness.

 

 

Early development kits comprised of a Falcon, did they not for Jaguar, these later changed to PC's?

 

 

Somewhat ironic for Jack T. then (and it's fantastic to hear another voice confirm he was 'still on board' Atari by time of Jaguar, some experts claim otherwise...)...that so many developers did indeed end up bypassing the Jaguar's custom chipsets, porting code over to the familar 68000 instead as it was far quicker, easier and cheaper, but in Atari's camp, it at least got product to retail a lot quicker.

 

Games like:

 

Dragon:Bruce Lee Story, Fever Pitch, Sensible Soccer, Cannon Fodder, Flashback, Syndicate, Theme Park, Pitfall:M.A, Baldies, Primal Rage, Zool 2,Dino Dudes, Raiden  etc never really did the system any favours in terms of showcasing what it was capable of.

 

 

Doom, I.S I and II, AVP, Skyhammer, Zero 5, Hoverstrike:S.E, Battlemorph, did but were too few in number.

 

 

It would be nice to see things like Ishar,Llamazap, Steel Talons, Moon Games,Ultimate Arena (yes i looked into a few Falcon games)...moved onto Jaguar.



#35 Video 61

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Posted 07 April 2017 - 06:38 PM

:) I'm anything but a tech head, but my very limited understanding is the Falcon's DSP is far more powerful than that in the Jaguar, but Jaguar has it's own key advantages, hardware wise?, so would it be straight forward-osh to take tasks running on Falcon DSP and move them onto Jaguar specific hardware?.

 

I have been very impressed by DML's Falcon work on Quake 2, but that seems custom written for Falcon hardware with a lot more Ram than Jaguar has...so not sure what hurdles trying to do something similar on Jaguar would present?

 

I was once following the attempt to bring something along lines of 3DO Road Rash to the Jaguar, but rather than head in 1 fixed direction, that project seemed to spin wildly off into possibility of bringing a Wipeout type game to Jaguar and it seemed more technical chat than building anything that could be put out there, Game Engine wise, for someone to build a full game around.

 

The homebrew scene, Atari wise, has often struck me as a bit..'Elitist', but that seems part n parcel of the more unsavoury aspects of the wider Atari community, people wanting to keep material of all types to themselves, sadly more often than not.

 

 

In an ideal world, you could have people who've discovered the work around measures, texture-mapping cheats etc that commercial Jaguar coders from the day didn't have the luxury of finding, due to commercial deadlines, sharing ideas etcwith those commercial coders behind game engines such as those powering WTR, Skyhammer, Iron Solider 2 etc etc

 

 

But from what i've seen, people like Mike Diskett, Jonathan Court etc, UK coders who dare pop their head out and say i worked on....get shouted down by a few weak dogs barking.

 

Rebellion get slagged off based on C.Flag 2 and fact they hadn't watched the Alien/Predator films prior to developing the game-Erm, that's what Andrew Whittaker was on hand for, plus, hello? anyone played Konami's Aliens coin-op? or Sega's Alien 3:The Gun coin-op? not exactly faithful to the film.

 

 

Probe described as lazy for the Primal Rage CD port etc etc.

 

Fanboys with little attempt to understand the very harsh world of commercial development on a failed format, it's hard enough to get coders, artists to talk about Jaguar development as is.

 yes the falcon was more powerful. but i was also told that the falcon was going to be the official developers machine. then one day it was not. supposedly there is some sort of ram swap that was developed, to offset the limited ram jack stuck the jaguar with.

 

 if you ever took apart just about anything from jacks atari, you will see in the beginnings, regardless if its a cart, or a platform, there are lots of support electronics on board, as time goes by, it seemed no matter what it was, a cart, or a platform, you saw less and less electronic component support on the boards.

 

 he spent far more time and money cutting costs on just about any unit regardless of what it was, then developing new programs to support  the hardware.

 

 each unit was carefully studied all of the time, to see where they could shave a penny off of a cart, by eliminating a resistor, a chip, or just about anything.

 

 it got so bad, that on the last shipment of the XE game necromancer that i got from atari, the plastic in the shell, was so soft, if you were strong enough, you could crush it. i sent them back immediately.

 

 same was said about the last batch of 7800 controllers i got from them. the fire button clicker boards, the clickers looked like actual copper, not tempered steel. the reason why i found this out, is because within days i was flooded with new 7800 joysticks returns, where the customers were complaining that the fire buttons went flat already after just a few hours of game play.

 

 i took one apart to see, that is what i found, got on the phone and got them recalled from my venders. sent them back. after that, most stuff by then i received from atari, had no boxes, and were just tossed in boxes and shipped to me.

 

 the last 300 7800's i got from atari, the plastic was so weak and brittle, and the mother boards so thin and weak, that people were breaking the shells just getting carts in and out of the machine, they had to take the carts out as careful as possible, because the boards were so weak and thin.

 

 so sent them back to. if atari had spent more time and effort on supporting their platforms, than trying to cut costs, they actually may have survived.

 

 

 this obsession drained away talent from supporting the systems.


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#36 Video 61

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Posted 07 April 2017 - 06:47 PM

@Video 61Jack's attitude seems to pre-empt that of Sony's with the PS2 and PS3 hardware, starve the damn things of Ram, make them as difficult as you can for developers to get the best from them, as you only wanted your selected 'Dream Team' developers onboard...

 

I remember talking to Peter C, from Audiogenic after reading old ST Format magazine quote from Peter saying how keen he was to start developing on Jaguar, Atari simply SNUBBED Audiogenic, saying they were only interested in the Big Name publishers...utter madness.

 

 

Early development kits comprised of a Falcon, did they not for Jaguar, these later changed to PC's?

 

 

Somewhat ironic for Jack T. then (and it's fantastic to hear another voice confirm he was 'still on board' Atari by time of Jaguar, some experts claim otherwise...)...that so many developers did indeed end up bypassing the Jaguar's custom chipsets, porting code over to the familar 68000 instead as it was far quicker, easier and cheaper, but in Atari's camp, it at least got product to retail a lot quicker.

 

Games like:

 

Dragon:Bruce Lee Story, Fever Pitch, Sensible Soccer, Cannon Fodder, Flashback, Syndicate, Theme Park, Pitfall:M.A, Baldies, Primal Rage, Zool 2,Dino Dudes, Raiden  etc never really did the system any favours in terms of showcasing what it was capable of.

 

 

Doom, I.S I and II, AVP, Skyhammer, Zero 5, Hoverstrike:S.E, Battlemorph, did but were too few in number.

 

 

It would be nice to see things like Ishar,Llamazap, Steel Talons, Moon Games,Ultimate Arena (yes i looked into a few Falcon games)...moved onto Jaguar.

 Ishar would have been awesome. all that i can remember is that , one day it was the falcon, then it got dumped, and i heard the word PC a lot. yes if atari would have supported proper development, they could have come up with some winners. no matter the size of the developers, one day a small one will come up with a winner.


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#37 BlackCatz40

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Posted 07 April 2017 - 09:34 PM

To tell you the truth, I would have loved to see Maximum Force, Area 51, and T-Mek on the Jag. They were going to be ported on there because of the COJAG technology. It would have worked. Primal Rage could have been better, it was just too slow. Unfortunately.



#38 Lost Dragon

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Posted 08 April 2017 - 08:04 AM

Some fantastic points raised here to discuss further...

 

 

I'd guess/assume that Atari 'soon' dropped the Falcon as the development 'PC' to go with the Jaguar/Jag CD development kits as developers were not happy using it?.PC's being the prefered choice....?

 

Atari had to swallow some pride before with Amiga's being needed to develop on the Lynx?

 

Atari were always to me, under the Tramiel era, all about what can we save money on?

 

Cut that developers budget, tell them they can only have X rather than Y sized ROM cart, no, were aren't adding extra hardware to beef up or CD drive and give base hardware better texture mapping, loose that soundchip, limit that onboard memory, so what if it throttles the hardware performance?

 

And even after games were released, Atari wanted developers to drop features so games could fit on smaller carts (Jaguar Cybermorph).

 

 

The STE, was supposed to be an Amiga Beater when 1st talked about, but it didn't even match the A500 in key areas.

 

It sounds like he cut the 7800 to the bone in terms of resources used, what a nightmare...cheap doesn't just sell, it sells to a point, then your reputation is for being cheap and not in a good way.

 

 

 

Ishar, even a mere Falcon Port, would of been very welcome on the Jaguar, but again, it's a case of what could of been, sadly not what actually was on the Jaguar.

 

 

 



#39 Lost Dragon

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Posted 08 April 2017 - 08:17 AM

I did reach out and contact a few of the surviving Jaguar Primal Rage coders/artists, as i've always been under the impression this was nothing more than a contractual obligation project by Probe, get it converted ASAP, delivered to Atari, get paid and catch up on PC/PS1/Saturn development instead.

 

Small sprites, long loading times, doubt much if any real optimisation went into it, but your looking at a commercial title for a tiny userbase..a game for an add-on, who's base hardware has bombed at retail.

 

None ever replied though.

 

The CoJag Hardware then...

 

Faster/more powerful CPU R3000 running at 33 Mhz... on LATER versions of Area 51 it seems, original version used a weaker, but still more powerful than Jaguar, 68EC020 25 Mhz CPU...

 

 

Then you add in:

 

 More RAM than Jaguar had,something like 8 Megs compared to Jaguar's 2?

 

 A HDD (so i assume you'd have to stream background graphics off CD?)

 

The 68EC020 supposedly has a small area of cache Ram, Jaguar CPU has none?

 

So, i wonder just how much would be comprimised in any conversion?

 

CoJag hardware, espically the later versions/revisions, look far more advanced than your standard Jaguar hardware.

 

 



#40 Lost Dragon

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Posted 08 April 2017 - 08:20 AM

Mind you, they converted Area 51 to the 2 Mb Playstation:

 

http://www.google.co...J_Zh-gzfOVgYLOQ






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