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The Ultimate Jaguar Unreleased/Beta/Source/Dev Master List!


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#21 Lost Dragon

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 07:30 AM

It'd be nice if concrete info came about regarding claims of exactly what Telegames had in development, prior to being apparently 'lost' in a tornado....

 

 

Ult Brain Games seems to be confirmed but:

 

Powerslide-Only ever seen 3DO screens myself...

Wild Cup Soccer...speculation this was 50% complete has been posted, but no source listed to say where said claim orignated from.If it's yet more copy n paste from UK Press, i shudder...

 

 

Virtuoso-So many conflicting claims, including the classic 'i know someone who knows someone who...yadda yadda'....be nice to know reality behind all of this.

 

 

Thunderstalker.....Never even heard a preview of myself...yet seen listed as Cart and CD game...

 

Graham Gooch Cricket

 

Casino Royale

 

Key issue has been FACT the person who made a lot of these claims back in 2005, doesn't even seem to know his games, as he lists:

 

 

James Pond III:Robocod.

 

 

No, James Pond II is ROBOCOD, James Pond III is:Operation Starfish, so which if any of these games were supposedly headed to Jaguar via Telegames?.

 

 

There has been follow up work done by Retro Gamer Magazine, i paid to read an article which twice referenced the fact Telegames had unfinished Jaguar games, but failed to mention a single one....

 

And i know others emailed Telegames years ago and had a very rude responses from them, but what has been proven to be true on any of the above?.

 

 

He'd also stated Gunship 2000 as complete, lost-well that's utter B.S as we now know, coding abandoned  after early 3D work.

 

Battlechess CD listed as Interplay-right as publisher/developer? krisalis were also supposed to of been converting Battlechess to Jaguar CD and had planned a Jaguar Soccer title.

 

Huge amount of claims yet to be cleared up i fear.


Edited by Lost Dragon, 19 December 2016 - 07:40 AM.

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#22 Clint Thompson

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 08:11 AM

I don't believe any of that really exists and none of it really grabs me as I've gotta see or have the desire to see it. There's really little left to be uncovered for the Jaguar worth uncovering imo and the things that are worth while will be incredibly difficult to obtain, if ever. The legwork to preserve what we have now and to actually document it properly is what's important so people don't continue to assume things don't exist or pay outrageous prices for things that have been around for 10+ years.


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#23 Lost Dragon

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 11:56 AM

Spot on brother....:)

 

The thing with the vast majority of these 'annouced' Jaguar titles, is they fall into the following areas:

 

 

1)Actually released on other systems and really nothing to shout about/did nothing to reverse fortunes of various systems:

 

Litil Divil, Creature Shock, Rise Of The Robots, Water World, Lobo, Cisco Heat, Clay Fighters, Demolition Man, Heart Of Darkness, Iron Man/XO-Manowar, James Pond III:Operation Starfish, Kick Off 3, Return To Zork and so forth....

 

 

Did Falcon which was enhanced, do anything for CDTV?

 

Or A1200 TFX do anything fpr that system?

 

 

Like how many times do you see any of these appearing as flagship games for various systems? never in most cases...

 

 

TFX is remembered for PC version, Falcon for PC/ST/Amiga versions... etc.

 

Reviews were pretty scathing of Cisco heat on 16 bit systems as it added nothing to what Out Run had done years prior, Heart Of Darkness was over hyped and very dated by time it appeared, Rise Of The Robots despite some high review scores from C+VG, CD32 Gamer etc was trash, Iron Man was massive stinker on Saturn etc etc.

 

 

 

You can also add in the false claims UK Press printed and certain people simply took at face valve, copied and pasted without making clear these were simply claims from likes of ST Format/Edge etc and thus credibility was to be questioned....

 

 

No Second Prize, Lion Heart etc etc...what should we of expected? faster versions of ST games with better sound? more colours?

 

People been asked about Jaguar:

 

 

MKIII, claims Cybermorph, Raiden, Crescent Galaxy started out on Panther, answers come back in to give enough credibity to suggest nothing new to be found and no they were not Panther titles.

 

 

 

But for myself, it's the very real harm that has been done/continues to be done, regarding Lost Jaguar titles that killed my interest.

 

Putting up a B.S list with colour coding system with 'status' of said titles, yet NO sources listed all those years ago, did people really not think others would look into such claims?

 

Having 3DO Iso footage physically altered to pass as Jaguar footage just to sell your warez on Ebay (Powerslide)....

 

 

 

And now folks are what? charging $30 a shot for Thea Realm Fighters on Ebay?

 

Selling clones of things like Skyhammer rather than support Songbird who paid to secure rights and code?

 

Going catch me if you can, i'll be releasing Soul Star code come what may, not mine, but nah nah nah....

 

The supposed experts out there couldn't even verify their own claims about Imagitec, Epyx, Thalion, Beyond, Argonaut, I.D, Telegames, Thalion etc etc

 

 

 

And so it's fallen to rest of us to try and piece together what really was a WIP, what was utter B.S and put together resources for a definite list.

 

 

I'm far from convinced Dactyl Joust would have run/looked anywhere as good once you coded in A.I etc, far too many games had visual downgrade in past....

 

 

 

AVP, Ch.Flag on Jaguar, Quake on Saturn, Dark Souls on PS3....

 

 

Something has to take a hit to get steady frame rate, path finding A.I etc to work....


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#24 Lost Dragon

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Posted 27 December 2016 - 01:57 PM

Just wanted to wish those thinking of looking further into Lost Jaguar Games, all the very best of luck for 2017.

 

 

Sadly i fear it might  be a year of:

 

 -Even more hazy recollections...

 

-Press claims proving to be utter nonsense, interview answers changed by editors/writers to make answers sound 'better' rather than what was actually said....

 

-People not wishing to talk about Jaguar development (espically if when they put something out on Twitter/FB, their reputation is attacked or their coding efforts were described as lazy..)...

 

 

-People from the industry sadly being no longer with us.

Just remember not to get hopes up too often, as coders, artists etc were often paid poorly, moved away from projects, never saw game once they passed it onto be mastered (case in point:ARC's John Gibson saw packaging for ST Badland's Pete, but had no idea game was actually released etc)....

 

 

But please, please keep looking and asking, you never know what's left to be found.


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#25 Clint Thompson

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Posted 27 December 2016 - 02:24 PM

Well said Lost Dragon.

 

There's not really much I personally hope to surface after all this time but now going over the Kasumi Ninja 2 CD documents, it would appear as though some work was actually done on this and I'm curious as to where it's sitting.

 

 

Comments on KN II Technical Specification

These comments are, in general, confined to the assumptions, about the Jaguar, that I infer from the document.

 

1) Page 6: The second block of pseudocode never calls InitFMV. Where was this meant to be?

2) Page 7: It is not clear that you realize that CD reading occurs "in the background"

3) I do not see what requires the leap to a multitasking system. If you mean that the CD reading must occur in the background, it is already done.

4) The error rate on the CD is VERY low. It is unclear if it is worth it to go to much effort to maintain smooth operation in the case of recoverable data errors when the data errors are so low.

5) Page 7: What processor do these engines run on?

6) Page 8: What IRQ stuff do you need to do that involoves the CD?

7) Page 10: I hope you use incremental backup!

8) Page 11: The balancing of resource usage is a skill that applies to all endevours. The bus bandwidth in a Jaguar is NOT infinite. Therefore it can be overloaded. You must balance the time required for the Object Processor with the speed of the blitter etc.

What did the Object Processor do KN? Why is the balance likely to change?

9) The CDBIOS will change over time. Giving you source will mean that KN II will not work with future revs, this is unacceptable.

10) The CD system is cannot be reentrant. It cannot instantly switch from reading one spot on the disc to reading another. Is this what you mean by "be able to multitask the BIOS"?

11) The question of whether or not "the hardware is capable of the required task" is only valid if the software is perfect. This is not likely to be the case. A more resonable question is whether the system (hardware and software) can be made to perform as required. Note that this also calls the system design into question.

12) Page 12: I think you mean 26.6 x 106, not 26.66.

13) 100æs seems VERY short. The range is however quite reasonable at the top end so wy not?

14) Page 13: What computation resulted in the number 128kb for the size of a CD buffer?

15) Double buffering the screen DOES NOT" relieve object processor bus overhead".

16) Are you aware that we supply a LZSS system on the BBS.

17) Page 14: What does "Loading ... into a register file..." mean? The GPU can ONLY load into and store from registers. The Blitter is quite efficient at loading GPURAM.

18) Page 18: You state that a file system is an important requirement, why? Is this a general concern or only as a result of some engine that you already have?

19) How would the "emulator" that you mention help you? The time required to sned the data down the parallel cable is SO long that it will be useless for any but the most trivial testing.We agree that the Falcon hard disc swap problem is real. What would be a good solution? Surely you can find a switch box so you need not "swop" hardware!

20) In your discussion you say, "If the main process is busy, so that data is missed, the same overhead applies". What does this mean? Data cannot be missed. It is placed in memory.

21) Short seeks in a CD are fast. It is long seeks that are slow.

22) Why should the CD be kept going? Once the data you need is loaded the CD, can, and should be paused.

23) Why do you need a circular buffer?

24) You talk again about "missed data", how does this happen?

25) Page 19: Why is a file system needed to keep the disc spinning? Just don't stop it, then it will keep spinning!

26) Implementing a forward seek via waiting for data to arrive is NOT a good general solution. The MAXIMUM seek time from one end of the CD toanother is measured in seconds. The wait time for the same "seek" (at double speed!) is more than 30 minutes!

27) Much too much effort has gone into the "problem" of CD read errors! These errors are VERY rare. Errors, when they do occur are flagged. Do a retry, if it still fails, the disc is bad!

28) Storing two copies is an AWFUL idea.

24) Page 23: What do you need this emulator for? (This is a repeat of question # 19)

25) We will be glad to answer your questions about the debugger, but you need to ask them. Stating a need for documentation is NOT the same as asking a question. Tell us the problem you are trying to solve and we will work out a way to solve it. For example, you talk about needing to integrate your "emulator" with RDBJAG. Are you aware of the ! feature of RDBJAG? This allows you to run a program without leaving RDBJAG, does this do what you need?

26) Item three in your list of required information is unclear.

27) If you had the source what you need ANY of the other stuff for?

28) The "whole idea of finding files" is NOT currently under review by Atari. What are you refering to?

29) Page 24: Why would you want to stop the CD before palying Cinepac?

30) Page 33: How do ghost keys happen? In general, a Keyboard Engine Seems like a lot of overkill!

31) Page 44: What do need Square Root for? What is the long forgotten algorithm?

 

There is a phrase that I ahve been trying to instill into the developer support people:

" If you are doing it in the 68000, you are doing it wrong".

In general there is little to be gained in trying to keep the 68k working in parallel with the Blitter and GPU rendering, because the bus is simply not free for the 68k to do anything. The only time that using the 68k can be a performance win is when Blitter is idle and the GPU is not on the bus. This is, in general rare.

 

 

Response to

Response to Leonard's comments on the Kasumi Ninja II Spec.

(I hope this does not go on much longer

the titles will get REALLY silly)

 

Thank you for fixing the numbering (Oops, I was in a hurry!).

Where things are now clear I will not respond!

 

4) Who asked you to cover the error aspect.

5) I fail to see the importance of a "good speed comparison". I understand the convinence of coding first for the 68k. I just want to point out that there are very few cases where t is a good idea to run code on the 68k.

6) I did not asked why the IRQ stuff needed to be re-written. I asked what the IRQ stuff was, please answer this question.

8) Why will the DSP require more of the system bandwidth for KN II? Given that the DSP has its own access to CD data without going onto the bus I would think that it is likely that the DSP will require less bus access. Why is this incorrect?

10) What functionality do you need in the BIOS that you do not have. I have gotten no feddback from anyone on missing features. SPEAK NOW OR FOREVER HOLD YOUR PEACE!

14) Without a computation the point you are trying to make, fails.

16) When did you develop your LZSS system. If you had asked for it sooner we may have done one sooner?

19) We agree that a better CD emulator is possible. I am of the opinion that CD-R should be used. By using recordable CDs the emulation problems go away.

20) How can data be missed once it is memory? What would overwrite it?

33) Again, What are you refering to when you say the "whole idea of finding files"?

 

I am not doing this because I enjoy reading dense technical material. I am doing this to increase the quality and improve the timeliness of Jaguar software development. Please answer the questions that remain. In particular:

 

What CD IRQ stuff are you talking about?

 

What BIOS features are missing?

 

When did you develop your LZSS code?

 

Response to Reply to:

Response to

Response to Leonard's comments on the Kasumi Ninja II Spec.

(Now it is silly!)

 

5) I can not make the point strongly enough. Do not use the 68k. The Cinepak performance was improved by ~20% by halting the 68k. This may not be "important like air food or water" but nothing in a game is! This is no longer an issue.

6) I want the IRQ question resolved so that no work is done on things that are not needed. I look forward to Rob's response.

8) Just because you are doing more with the DSP does not mean that it will require more bandwidth. The DSP has its own bus, if the DSP activity is confined, or largely restricted, to this bus it will have little, if any, impact on the rest of the system! I consider this an open question. You seem unable to address this now.

10) Your reply is not appropriate to the demand "SPEAK NOW OR FOREVER HOLD YOUR PEACE". I take it that you have no comments at this time but reserve the right to sumbit them in the future. Fine, I reserve the right to ignore if they come too late. This issue is closed unless you try to re-open it.

16) Sorry, if you ask, I answer. I am simply requesting that you let us know what we are paying for. That way we don't pay to have two versions developed and then have one thrown away. This is no longer an issue.

19) No, burning a new CD is not needed every time you need to test your code. The CD will be holding data, the code will be in RAM. When debugging the code that will spool data off the disc, test seek delays, etc the data used in these test can be constant. This constant data would be on the CD. The code under development would be loaded into RAM and run there. To use your words the 'stuff' under development would not be on the CD only the data it is manipulating. This was never an issue, I was simply pointing out a different way to do things. I wish that you would consider that it might have some merit.


Edited by Clint Thompson, 27 December 2016 - 02:26 PM.

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#26 Lost Dragon

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Posted 27 December 2016 - 03:53 PM

Wowza, even though a lot of the tech-speak is way over my head, this is a series of 'mails between HMS and Leonard Tramiel regarding development issues with Kasumi Ninja II for Jag CD i assume?

 

It really does speak volumes and echoes a lot of what other Jaguar developers (and Panther developers) have said and i sometimes see from certain aspects of today's Jaguar community....

 

 

There's nothing wrong with the hardware it must be YOUR code at fault.LMAO reading some of the exchanges here.

 

Whilst i totally understand Atari wanting developers to steer clear of the 68000, it did have a role and was indeed well used at times by Jaguar developers as part of assigning specific tasks to the chipsets avaiable, so seemed a little daft to have it ignored, if it could be used wisely.

 

 

 

And indeed Atari would not be wanting to pay for 2 versions of a game, unless they themselves had specifically asked for this..ie Iron Solider 2, Hover strike, Rebellion's Legions Of The Undead perhaps?

 

Cart version 1st then follow up with enhanced CD version to tie in with launch of the Jag CD Rom...but then as stated in other thread, Atari themselves were a bloody nightmare..Defender 2K make it CD, no wait, put it on cart....

 

 

Cybermorph, right it needs to be cheaper, rip out what you can put it out now on 1 MB cart....

 

But when you had the very limited resources Atari had..you can understand the reasoning, even if your not a fan of the results.

 

 

And all this before marketing say, we need it in full 3D, texture mapped etc..high res, colourful 2D is old hat, have you seen what Sega/Sony and 3DO are putting out?

 

we want polygon 3D, full screen texture-mapping, light sourcing..never mind the frame rate, no-one sees that in still shots, do they?.



#27 Lost Dragon

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Posted 27 December 2016 - 03:54 PM

Really, really appreciate you sharing that, it was wonderous to read.


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#28 Lost Dragon

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Posted 27 December 2016 - 05:46 PM

@Clint:Maybe you or some other good soul can help me reagrding a few Lost Game issues? 1)Are you aware of early Skyhammer (aka Hammerhead) screens and if so, are they 'real'?.They were supposed to be in-game screens, but running at much higher resolution, have better colour depth and textures on buildings, tanks etc. Could this be early AVP syndrome again? ie visual downgrade once A.I coded and steady frame rate required?. 2)Has it ever been confirmed the impressive Dactyl Joust footage on YT etc is actually running on real Jaguar hardware and not PC and if so, does it even have basic A.I running?. Also was there an earlier version which asked too much of the Jaguar hardware in terms of texture-mapping and thus game design was changed to make it more 'doable' on Jaguar? and was there VR support planned for it?. 3)Were there ever any screenshots/video footage for OMC's Assassin?. I read an interview with the developer on AEO, but never saw anything of game itself.

#29 Clint Thompson

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 05:07 AM

There was early Hammerhead gameplay video in one of the E3 videos on YT somewhere but I don't recall it looking any better at all. Not sure about the Dactyl Joust but since it came from Carl Forhan believe it to be of reliable source in being legit, though I suppose there's no proof without the pudding.

 

I was showing OMC's stuff at JagFests like Dark Guardian and The Assassin but there wasn't very much progress on either really, just demo kind of stuff. The artist that was working with James for The Assassin was awesome however. He had some really great scenes created and looked super promising. The intro with the city skyscrapers and Assassin shadow or outline himself was very awesome and most of it was just text placeholder on screen. There was a bedroom/hotel screen that looked awesome but I have no idea where that picture is, though it's possible I still have it on an old hard drive somewhere. Either way, incredibly early stuff, no real gameplay outside of pressing a button and passing through text dialogue really.

@Clint:Maybe you or some other good soul can help me reagrding a few Lost Game issues? 1)Are you aware of early Skyhammer (aka Hammerhead) screens and if so, are they 'real'?.They were supposed to be in-game screens, but running at much higher resolution, have better colour depth and textures on buildings, tanks etc. Could this be early AVP syndrome again? ie visual downgrade once A.I coded and steady frame rate required?. 2)Has it ever been confirmed the impressive Dactyl Joust footage on YT etc is actually running on real Jaguar hardware and not PC and if so, does it even have basic A.I running?. Also was there an earlier version which asked too much of the Jaguar hardware in terms of texture-mapping and thus game design was changed to make it more 'doable' on Jaguar? and was there VR support planned for it?. 3)Were there ever any screenshots/video footage for OMC's Assassin?. I read an interview with the developer on AEO, but never saw anything of game itself.


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#30 Lost Dragon

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 08:20 AM

Cheers Clint :)

 

Regarding OMC..there seemed to be a lot of 'ideas' for games floating around, concepts etc and titles annouced (Assassin,Age Of Darkness, Dark Guardian+Element Of Darkness) but i never saw a single actual in-game shot myself, so it's been very hard to generate any feeling about what could of been with any of them....were they even far enough along to count as true Lost games?.

 

 

 

Another i'd welcome some clarity on, is Zzyorxx II...saw screenshot in Ultimate Future Games, read comments about there being a Falcon version in STF (i think)....then an interview online claiming game was a mere 2 months away from being finished before management canned it-which i find really, really hard to believe.

 

IF it was so far along and rest of game featured visuals as good as that 1 screenshot, how come:No other screens appeared anywhere, no big preview features, no rolling footage etc shown to press?

 

 

For all i know that 1 screenshot is yet another concept shot/mock up and bears no realation to reality.

 

The online interview had answer altered to 'read better'.

 

 

There simply needs to be far more information to make a decision on what was what.

 

 

Regarding Dactyl Joust..yes the 'Rolling Footage' looks superb and indeed it may well running in real time, on Jaguar hardware, but it needs to be made clear if it's simply 'scripted' footage, ie following pre-set route, no A.I routines running, no path finding, collision detection etc.IF it is, it simply joins early AVP Rolling demo as shown on Gamesmaster TV show...

 

 

MS and that 9 min E3 Halo 2 demo (which was far better than actual game we saw).....

 

 

In terms that ALL the hardware is doing is running that sequence, no real game tasks required.

 

 

At least likes of Lobotomy were honest enough to explain why early footage of saturn Quake looked more oimpressive than final version (messy creatures at a distance etc), compromises had to be made to keep frame rate as solid as possible, run creature A.I etc.

 

 

 

It's kinda like when folks on YT put up videos of Pokey playing Out Run Music etc and say game was in development, well yes and it got as far as what you saw and then coder realised the hardware limits had been reached with what little was done so far, there was simply no way to turn it into anything like a proper conversion and so that was that....

 

 

 

Or you see still shots of 128K ZX Spectrum Final Fight etc, massive sprites, very impressive for a primitive 8bit machine until...they start moving.....

 

 

 

Hopefully 2017 will see some claims at least put to bed once and for all.



#31 Clint Thompson

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 08:33 AM

I've got the several builds of The Assassin and Dark Guardian but again, neither are much outside of text prompts and a flying ship that just pans around the screen. Cool intro on DG with music and such but outside of that, a lot of empty space. I'll see if I can post some screens when I come across the bins again.


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#32 Clint Thompson

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 09:15 AM

Turns out I had one from DG on this system, I'll have to track down the others but this gives you a decent idea. It doesn't like emulators very much as the ship is blown way out or proportion and the scene to gameplay bypasses quickly. The text you see here with the same background was a whole lot of what you would see in The Assassin.

 

omc1.png omc2.png omc3.png omc4.png omc5.png


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#33 Lost Dragon

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 01:34 PM

Fantastic...really appreciate you sharing, those are the 1st screens from OMC games i've ever seen, so much appreciated.

 

 

I looked at old Atari "Coming in 1995" Magazine advert, any idea what:

 

Redemption on Jag CD

 

And Star Battle on cart were?

 

I know Rage Rally became Power Drive Rally, Burnout:Super Burnout etc.

 

So were these 2 early names for other titles?.



#34 Lost Dragon

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Posted 29 December 2016 - 09:00 AM

Even looking at a wider range of Press Coverage, at the time, has made me realise there is simply so little left to get excited about, Lost Jaguar Games wise.

 

 

The warning signs were clearly there from the very start, but my Jag Owner blinkers must of been on real tight.

 

 

GameFan magazine did a far better job of warning me not to expect too much from Freelancer 2120 back in May'94..it made clear the PC CD version was further in development, running at 25 FPS etc, yet anyone ever seen any footage of that?......

 

 

NO..

 

 

And this wouldn't even of been a Jaguar CD exclusive, just another PC port...

 

 

There were 2 addt. Toki Goes Apeshit screens doing the rounds, but again, didn't make the game look WOW....nothing ever seen since the inital previews and comments from Bobby Earle etc....

 

 

Yet i believe X-Gen magazine claimed it was finished?...needed something to print i wager....

 

 

Yes  Doom II using optimised version of inital Jaguar Engine Carmac wrote would of been lovely on Jaguar, have the game running in higher resolution than (160X200) and at faster frame rate, with music and sound FX, no missing creatures, more levels etc..but that would of required 1st to be a commercial sucsess...needed bigger cart...

 

(Even Bill Rehbock was quick to point out Doom code was written with a 486 PC with 256K Cache in mind and the Jaguar hardware handled texture-mapping, via GPU/Blitter very differently, he praised ALL at I.D for converting Wolf 3D and Doom so quickly to Jaguar...none of the finger pointing as to why no music or fantasy realm claims of Quake being possible)

 

 

Atari simply didn't have the money to secure anything like enough big name games for conversion to Jaguar and those it did secure, ended up being converted by likes of Tiertex, Imagitec etc and we simply didn't see enough exclusive content on Jag versions we in UK were paying £50+ for.

 

Hell we didn't even get Mouse Support (as no Jaguar Mouse) for things like Cannon Fodder, Theme Park etc and thus controls suffered somewhat.

 

 

You cannot get 'giddy' thinking of what might of been, based on a game proposal, concept screen, sketch work etc

 

 

 

My hopes for this master list in 2017 is that it continues to point out what claims made have been speculation (from all sources), which games were rightfully abandoned early on and basically stops folks having false hope code will 1 day magically arrive.

 

 

I think releases of early code of things like Thea Realm Fighters has, if nothing else, been something of a 'wake-up call' and brought home the reality that this, sadly, would not of been the 2D beat-em-up Atari badly needed to be taken seriousily in this genre.

 

 

I know there were claims MK III was running on cart, with Pro Pad support, 4 playable characters etc at E3'95..yet i've never seen any magazine cover it, it's not on any of the magazine VHS tapes that covered E3 in depth i've seen....

 

 

I'm also aware Powerslide (Elite) is supposed to be in the hands of a 'Collector' but given how poor the Jaguar seemed to handle these sort of games, i think it's best left unseen myself as i very much doubt it'll be anywhere near 3DO standards..if things like Return Fire are meant to look worse than 3DO version according to those who converted them....then somethings are best left unseen by the masses, the reveal would just lead to far more mockery of Jaguar on YT etc i'm sure.


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#35 Lost Dragon

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Posted 29 December 2016 - 10:57 AM

Kicking myself for not asking Scott Rogers, when i had the chance, but claim was Atari themselves 'released' the company he was working for, from the contract to convert Return Fire from 3DO to Jaguar, wonder if, in part that was because Atari themselves saw how poor it was and decided it would do more harm than good if released?.

 

Talking of claims:

 

 

Over to you guys for the following (as in, is there an ounce of truth to them?)

 

1)Iron Solider was originally planned/designed for the Falcon, not Jaguar?

2)Ted Hoff cancelled the Jaguar version of Acclaim's Batman Forever, as the rights proved too expensive to aquire (just as well as game was nothing special, but then film itself was awful).

 

3)Virgin stopped work on conversion of 3DO Demolition Man after converting the 3dO FMV to a format Jag CD could read, as Atari constantly delayed the release of the Jag CD Drive...



#36 Clint Thompson

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Posted 29 December 2016 - 10:58 AM

I know there were claims MK III was running on cart, with Pro Pad support, 4 playable characters etc at E3'95..yet i've never seen any magazine cover it, it's not on any of the magazine VHS tapes that covered E3 in depth i've seen....

 

You make a very valid point about MKIII on the Jaguar with literally no coverage regarding the conversion outside of 'it's being worked on' sort of talks and basic stills most definitely taken from other consoles as placeholder. There's no doubt though, that like NBA Jam T.E., MKIII could have been an amazing game for the Jaguar if actually developed and released. Pretty sure if there would have been anything left in that regards that Carl Forhand/Songbird would have already worked very hard in getting it produced and released.


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#37 Clint Thompson

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Posted 29 December 2016 - 11:02 AM

Kicking myself for not asking Scott Rogers, when i had the chance, but claim was Atari themselves 'released' the company he was working for, from the contract to convert Return Fire from 3DO to Jaguar, wonder if, in part that was because Atari themselves saw how poor it was and decided it would do more harm than good if released?.

 

Talking of claims:

 

 

Over to you guys for the following (as in, is there an ounce of truth to them?)

 

1)Iron Solider was originally planned/designed for the Falcon, not Jaguar?

2)Ted Hoff cancelled the Jaguar version of Acclaim's Batman Forever, as the rights proved too expensive to aquire (just as well as game was nothing special, but then film itself was awful).

 

3)Virgin stopped work on conversion of 3DO Demolition Man after converting the 3dO FMV to a format Jag CD could read, as Atari constantly delayed the release of the Jag CD Drive...

 

I've never heard of Iron Soldier for the Falcon and that doesn't seem really possible imo.

 

No idea about Ted Hoff and Batman Forever claims but they already had it on the Lynx so I'm unsure what would've been so difficult. They could get all the licenses in the world but the game still translated into garbage.

 

The Jaguar CD was seriously started in early 94 and I just remember the development notes being issues with the data transfer and errors as a result due to some weird interference that they finally found a work around for. It's insane to think it took them so long to release the Jaguar CD. We may have actually seen some more Jaguar CDs and MKIII on CD would have been far more likely.


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#38 Lost Dragon

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Posted 29 December 2016 - 02:26 PM

LMAO, the last time i asked for 'proof' MK III was as far along as had been claimed (this, on another forum, long time ago), the poster simply supplied a scan of the very page from C+VG i'd sent HIM, which simply annouced Atari had SIGNED it...

 

 

I personally find it very hard to fathom the idea that if such a title was to the point it was playable, Atari wouldn't of rushed it to the press and made damn sure it was making news.

 

 

It would of been the 1 2S game that could of undone all that mockery the Jaguar had recieved up to this point, by the press over games like Kasumi Ninja, Dragon:Bruce Lee Story (another 16 bit port), Ultra Vortek, Double Dragon V..that was it, no more clones and you didn't need to buy a PS1 to play a better than SNES/GENESIS version...

 

 

Plus it would of sent a message out that developers were still taking Jaguar seriousily.

 

 

I was an avid UK games press reader back then, yet none of the E3 reports, let alone footage on cover mounted VHS tapes, ever made even a footnote mention of it.

 

 

Why on earth would you bury the 1 title that could of established the Jaguar as something to take a look at, if you had the code to prove it?.

 

Plus it's never turned up on any coder or artist's C.V that i'm aware of.

 

 

I know Farran T.talked of work starting on early version of what would of been a kind of Ultimate MK, based on characters/moves from 1st 2 games, his memory as to why they fell by the wayside, understandably shaky after all these years, but suggests that Atari felt it already had enough 2D fighters and MK Actors wanted to make their own fighting game..

 

Plus in earlier interview talked of deal done with Acclaim to get rights for Jaguar MK (1st game)..MK having been started, but never really getting that far, but it would of been based around the Ulitmate MK coin-op they had in the office at the time.

 

 

And really? like how many visitors to an Atari stand at something like E3? yet only 1 person (i'm aware of) has any recollection of it being on display and Atari were letting people play it?..it just doesn't add up for myself.


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#39 Lost Dragon

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Posted 29 December 2016 - 02:40 PM

The Eclipse Iron Solider/Falcon claim is a curio, there MIGHT be some truth to it and it follows a similar path to Rebellion..ie Eclipse pitch concept for a game to Atari, for the newly released Falcon, Atari say love it, but we want it on Jaguar...but i'd need a reliable source for that to be given credibilty.

 

 

Just thought i'd throw it out there, to see if anyone had heard anything from years back...

 

Batman Forever Farran has said was 'The Least developed title', so must of been canned very early on...but getting the rights had been a big deal.

 

I know Atari released a P.R statement about it (plus Primal Rage, Thea Realm Fighters, but AGAIN, nothing on MK 3) Jan 6th'95

 

Just said based on MOVIE, not coin-op, due for Summer '95 release, survey had shown 90%+ of US population familar with character, so title should have wide appeal.

 

Chances are at best, we'd of seen something like the PC game..basically SNES/Genesis game, but with 'better' graphics...ie none of the washed out backdrops, clearer sprites etc.

 

 

Maybe poor reviews of the 16 bit versions, poor controls, boring gameplay, let alone PC version made Atari realise they were not going to get any money back off this?.



#40 Lost Dragon

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Posted 30 December 2016 - 01:57 PM

Ok then, looked back through Unseen64 book...

 

Scott Rogers said as he was working on the SNES version of Demolition Man, he would of been tasked with converting game assets for any Jaguar version (not FMV sequences from 3DO version) as he was a real whizz at Debabelizer, at the time, but since he wasn't asked...

 

 

*Scott was working for Alexandria as it was they who had the contract with Atari to convert Return Fire from 3DO to Jaguar...

 

Scott's view of Jaguar hardware? it was "junk"...hard to code for a "real dog of a console" and it couldn't reach anything like 3DO level of graphics for things like Return Fire.

 

I still think it'd be interesting to see WIP screens of Jaguar Return Fire, just to see how and where image quality varied.

 

Espically since i'm told the PS1 version's graphics aren't as sharp as the original 3DO version (sound also better on 3DO version)..but PS1 version has features not found on 3DO version? you can pan the camera out, different victory screens, etc.

 

 

Never played the 3DO or PC versions, so not sure which is 'best', plus as footage of unreleased Saturn version exists, it'd be nice to get the Jaguar version as final piece of the puzzle.

 

Back to Demo.Man:Add that to Stuart Greg (via RVG interview) having not even heard of Demolition Man on Jag CD until he was asked about it...

 

And Creecy Siloh stated on AA it only got as far as the 3DO FMV converted (he worked on Cannon Fodder and Dragon at Virgin, on Jaguar and stated back in Jan 2002 Creature shock was another title Atari wanted, but luckily that never happened either)...i'd say the previews in C+VG and Ultimate Future Games, let alone shot Atari had on back of box were from 3DO version...

 

 

So nothing really to find...

 

 

As for MK3...LMAO, UFG ran a news piece assuring readers previews of it on Jaguar would be in the magazine, any issue now...they did run a preview of sorts...(3rd Party Time), saying game was due Late'95, showed a MK3 Title screen, character selection screen and 2, not even full-screen in-game images, but these could of been from coin-op/PS1 version...nothing at all to prove they were from any WIP Jaguar version....

 

 

And last time i saw someone repeat claim this game was playable at a Games Show, it had changed from E3 to CES...So was this the USA show or the European Show?

 

 

And finally Dactyl Joust:So, Unseen64 spoke to a coder, who wished to remain anonymous (fair enough, a lot of folk who worked on unreleased games have done the same with myself, only explained what happened, but don't want the info shared or fact they were even asked talked about, i respect that 100%...)

 

 

But he said game very much existed, only there was only 1 arena up n running, game had the most basic of A.I at this point, player could use Jousting Lance and get Dactyl to shoot a fireball, but that was it...so i personally do question if the visual quality wouldn't of been comprimised by the time 2 or more opponents were included, A.I routines for them, collision detection etc implemented....

 

 

 

 

But the real stinger..thgis was never even going to be a Jaguar exclusive (something it so badly needed), no, this would of joined Freelancer 2120 as being on high end PC's, so we'd have the weaker version....

 

 

 

 

Bill Rehbock had spoken of Williams Entertainment handling the license and marketing of it on PC.






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