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The Ultimate Jaguar Unreleased/Beta/Source/Dev Master List!

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#41 Lost Dragon

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Posted 31 December 2016 - 01:12 PM

No doubt i will get more hate for doubting footage of Dactyl Joust :-))

But I am a time seasoned gamer, seen early version of Operation Thunderbolt on C64 look far more impressive than version Ocean served up..

And often a playable demo would be more impressive than final game...

CD32 Skidmarks ran in 256 colours in it's 1 track demo form..

Amiga Body Blows demo played a lot faster, had more responsive controls than final game..

FEARS was another prime example, along with Core Designs Jaguar XJ220..both featuring simpler game engines, but both ran faster as a result...

Pegasus had a 1 level flying section featuring in game music final game only offered sound fx in same section.

And here is Team 17 previewing Amiga Alien Breed 3D


Here's final version, different enemies etc


So a lot happens between target and final code...

Edited by Lost Dragon, 31 December 2016 - 01:21 PM.

#42 Lost Dragon

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Posted 05 January 2017 - 05:45 AM

Re-discovered the letter i had in Ultimate Future Games, asking what the hell had happened to Freelancer 2120 Jag Cd as i'd seen nothing since the inital screens (now known to be mock-ups/taken from PC version etc):



"The simple answer is,it's been canned.The development on this title on the Jaguar format was scrapped in mid 1995.The project has been re-designed and overhauled for the much more capable Sony Playstation System" was the exact answer, given by Imagitec Design's Martin Hooley....


But i never see this quote put alongside the very Gamesmaster Magazine Jag CD preview screens when ever they turn up elsewhere online, as it doesn't seem to 'suit' Jaguar fans that Imagitec stated the PS1 was far more capable....




As for those early Skyhammer screens..yep, found'em...


Supplied for a very early Preview, game still then known as Hammerhead, Rebellion hadn't even scanned in the wood model  cockpit for the game, game itself only said to be 25% complete....


In this version enemy craft were black with red engines at back and on wings, buildings mix of purple and black,in 2 of the 3 screens, plus 1 had a browny/green building in 3rd, white lights on etc, texture-mapping on tanks looked different....



I'm guessing very early shots, things like A.I etc not implemented?



Buildings themself look very different in final game, lots more big, white windows, grey colour scheme to structures, i actually prefer look of preview game, ships look a bit more edgy etc.



Would be interesting to know origins of the early screens, wether changes made for artistic or technical reasons...


Just emailed screens over to Clint....

Edited by Lost Dragon, 05 January 2017 - 05:48 AM.

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#43 Clint Thompson

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Posted 05 January 2017 - 09:04 AM

It does look more texture heavy but either way I think SkyHammer turned out awesome. Again, it's something you have to see to believe is running on a Jaguar.



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2600 - 7800 - 800XL - 130XE - Lynx - Jaguar



#44 Lost Dragon

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Posted 05 January 2017 - 01:45 PM

Whilst i prefer the earlier look in terms of 'feel', the final version is a superb example of just how far the Jaguar could be pushed at that time, using what had been learnt whilst coding Ch.Flag and AVP.I know it uses the 'darkness' trick to assist with 3D but hey so did PSone G-Police and lets not forget N64 Rogue squadron, Turok etc, let alone Pentium PC Magic Carpet using fogging....but it's a superb example of the type of game i badly wanted to see running on Jaguar and defined 64 bit gaming to myself, none of the on-rails stuff the Nintendo SFX Chips were doing to look so ompressive in terms of 3D.


I know Rebellion screwed the proverbial somewhat with Ch.Flag, but i've never understood why they often take so much 'hate' as a Jaguar developer, AVP was stunning, ditto Skyhammer, Legions Of The Undead was showing real promise...



When i compare their output to that of say High Voltage..Ruiner Pinball, WMCJ, early coding on F.F.L etc ..the only really  impressive game that stood out was Dactyl Joust and that's just a looped video sequence and as the above screens show, games can undergo a lot of visual changes before they are finalised, AVP early video with no A.I etc 60 FPS...



Atari's preview screens of Ch.Flag looked far more impressive as well.



Great to have the scan up here, maybe 1 day source code or at least more info on, the early screens can come to light and be shared?.

#45 Lost Dragon

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Posted 06 January 2017 - 12:20 PM

Looking back at this interview:




"What did you and Edgies work on that was unreleased? 

Too many things. For Atari we had one title called ‘Battle Lords’ which was a hack and slash Gauntlet style title which we had signed up for the Jaguar and PC."



"Another was “Chopper” for the Jaguar which was 3D choplifter - the physics were excellent for the day."


"We also had a platformer on the Jaguar called “Green-Thang” which was immense fun that was designed to compete with Zool and a few others whose name is on the server archive somewhere."



"The code for Green-Thang was 80% complete on the Jaguar and we were about to start on the artwork as we kept development artwork at 16 or 32 colours with the idea we’d put it out on the Lynx too then scale the art up. Hence the very primary colours that the Lynx required.




I'd personally of liked to of seen something on Battle Lords as Jaguar could of done with a 3D take on Gauntlet...



3D Choplifter? just take my money, if done well, so again would of been nice of seen.



Green-Thang however? Lynx yes, hardware badly needed more platformers, but bringing Zool 2 to Jaguar did nothing for it, any more than Bubsy etc...so i just think it would of been seen as trying to compete yet again with Genesis by offering 16 bit style clones on a 64 bit system.



When press were saying things like Battlemorph and Missile Command 3D didn't look 64 bit enough due to lack of texture mapping, slow frame rates, another 16 bit-esq platformer was last thing Jaguar needed, but then porting unreleased Amiga games wasn't exactlyt what the Jaguar Cd needed to be taken seriousily either, was it?.

Edited by Lost Dragon, 06 January 2017 - 12:27 PM.

#46 Lost Dragon

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Posted 12 January 2017 - 03:39 PM

Hmmn.It seems Jaguar Gotcha was 'shelved' pretty early on, with it at best being up for consideration after the PC release...


Apparently some at Atari thought it simply wasn't suitable for the Jaguar market...

#47 Lost Dragon

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 01:56 PM

Time to further clear up claims that Core Design had several Jaguar projects 'on-the-go' besides Soul Star being converted from Sega CD to Jaguar CD.


The Soul Star team were asked about the game and future Jaguar plans at ECTS...


They talked of the advantages Jaguar version had in terms of 16 bit colour sprites, enhanced depth cueing etc.



The disadvantages...'floor graphics' chunkier, but this was done to keep the speed up and they admitted this was their 1ST Jaguar title and were still learning the hardware.



They also admitted they had NO future Jaguar titles planned.



So, thanks to chatting to coders, artists etc on BC Racers, Shellshock etc, likes of myself, RVG etc found that no-one knew of any Jaguar versions even being planned, let alone worked on.



Richard Barclay confirmed the Tomb Raider screens Edge used in it's Jaguar supplement were fakes.



Sega Saturn Magazine interviewd Swagman creators, we know its Amiga/PC/Genesis origins.....nothing Jaguar based.



And Ted Hoff himself publically stated reason Jag CD Soul Star was never finished was Core design were bought out, teams split and assigned to other projects.



So, i'd love to know why screens from Swagman, Shellshock, Thunderhawk etc have appeared on supposed expert in Atari, YT vids etc as they are based on speculation and are not grounded in reality.

Edited by Lost Dragon, 19 January 2017 - 01:56 PM.

#48 Lost Dragon

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 02:43 PM

Jaguar was supposed to be having a conversion of James Pond III:Operation Starfish...



Well, ST Format made a claim that Millenium's Ian Saunter had said the ST version had been finished, but scrolling was so poor, they decided not to release it.


No idea IF this claim was true, but if it was, it makes me wonder if the ST code couldn't of been sold on, used as a basis for the Jaguar version?


Pure speculation on my part, but i'd wager any version of the game would of been a port from easiest version to convert from.



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Posted 20 January 2017 - 05:01 AM

did some update, just let us add that Rom seperate, when we completed the list, a second (final) check will be done, and lets dig into these 'odd' roms

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#50 Lost Dragon

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 07:03 AM

looking forward to it.


Work being done here is very much appreciated.

#51 Lost Dragon

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Posted 21 January 2017 - 08:07 AM

 I've just requested  access to the list.



Be interested to hear any findings on:



Powerslide (Telegames) as they were supposed to of said 3DO version was being done 1st.


Operation Starfish (James Pond III) supposed to be more colourful than Genesis version and levels redesigned?


Doom II..i've seen listed as being started :)


I know I.D gave an interview with ST Format, saying IF Doom sold well enough, Doom II would happen on Jaguarand Dan McNamee was quoted saying I.D were still a lot more 'hyped' on Jaguar than 32X, we should see a lot more from them, along with Tom Gillen saying I.D were still working with Atari, after Doom was released on Jaguar, but after speaking to Romero and Taylor, it became clear Jaguar Doom had bombed at retail, these 2 not fans of Jaguar hardware at all.



Tom Gillen has also talked of POSSIBILITY of 2nd and 3rd generations of Supercross 3D appearing on Jag CD, but given horrendous response to the cart game, doubt these ideas ever taken up.


ZZyorxx II - Virtual Experience-Seen Atari say they were aware it was being worked on by a 3rd party, but had yet to be seen internally at Atari...

Edited by Lost Dragon, 21 January 2017 - 08:17 AM.

#52 Lost Dragon

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Posted 19 February 2017 - 12:46 PM

Further to my attempts to discover what i can regarding status of Lost Jaguar Games..


Extra from my email exchange with Jon Dean who worked at Argonaut, as well as Activision, Atari UK etc:



Jon told me Creature Shock was in development whilst he was at Argonaut (on PC CD), but not finished by the time he left and Argonaut had development kits for every major platform...which goes along with all the other sources, confirming what we already knew, they did have a Jag CD development system.


Jon then SPECULATES why Jaguar CD Creature Shock might not have progressed very far, this is based around issues concerning various other unfinished Argonaut titles..



Factors such as cost to complete project, frame rate issues, limited Ram of the hardware, no viable market for finished product etc would all of been factors for any decision to stop all work, after inital test coding (early 3D modelling/FMV conversion etc) had started as would the possibility of not having enough bandwidth to work on it or they simply weren't getting paid enough for the publishing rights.

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#53 TeddyGermany


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Posted 20 February 2017 - 04:15 AM

I think the situation at Argonaut wasn't unlikely to other developers in these days.

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#54 Lost Dragon

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Posted 20 February 2017 - 05:00 AM

Yep, Argonaut are very much like Core Design in terms of a UK publisher/developer, where myself and many others have spoken to coders,artists, heads of.., P.R folk you name it and it soon becomes apparent that any/all Jaguar development was soon abandoned once it became clear the format was dying at retail, as had been predicted.

You start to hear same comments, games hinted at appearing on likes of Jaguar, 32X, even Saturn, were done a lot of the times simply to generate interest, build the hype.

Basically start work on title on PC, get the intro scenes etc rendered on high end work stations, then decide on a format to bring it to 1st,console wise, once it became clear which platforms were market leaders.

In case if Jaguar, 32X..no one going to risk developing new I.P on, far less risky to port over existing PC CD or Mega CD code..

#55 Lost Dragon

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 01:00 PM

Well, where DO i start :) Again, MASSIVE thanks to Scott for the internal Atari documentation, but lets just look at Dactyl Joust for starters... 


ATARI themselves clearly NOT happy with way game was progressing, High Voltage promising more texture-mapping, but after a promosing start..High Voltage claiming they could deliver the line-of-sight combat mechanic, it's reported the coder had gotten in way over his head, Atari weren't happy with who H.Voltage were using, wanted someone else, but their suggestion was busy coding Jaguar NBA Jam. Last memo i read saw Atari asking IF it was worth pursing the game or if it needed a total re-write....




 There is not a shred of proof I.D were even signed to convert Doom II or Quake to Jaguar, niether appears on any status or release schedule supplied and Scotts forwarded a good few. T-Mek WAS in development, reading status as TERMINATED was gutting..


. AVP CD:Lot of speculation who might be interested, Atari putting forward list of ideas for what they wanted, Beyond Games interested as were Alexandria it seems, though having spoken to Return Fire coder who HATED Jaguar hardware, they were hardly best suited. 


The entire Batman Returns saga (2 developers listed) made for interesting reading.... Not sure if 1 can be mentioned as it's under an N.D.A. Demolition Man only 5 weeks away from being finished. Soul Star as thought, the ONLY Core design game in development, so claims of Tomb Raider, BC Racers, Swagman, Thunderhawk and Shellshock should be laid to rest once and for all. Imagitec took delivery of Doom Engine, needed for Jaguar Freelancer 2120....Atari got sick of waiting for details of Jaguar Space Junk it seems, NO contract signed, took game off release Schedule.... 



Heart Of Darkness, Studio wanted to convert, no sign Atari wanted it... Teque London were doing Summer Games II Return To Crystal Castles-Yoho..but PC CD only listed? Commander Blood..game engine needed 100K to run off GPU, so they had to re-code it for 68000 and just use GPU outside of main engine bits. Ringler Studios, NOT happy with certain Atari V.P (some history between them)...Ringler make claim Atari over promised SUPPORT in terms of development tools etc and the 3D Rendering ability of Jaguar Hardware..supposedly Leonard Tramiel had claimed Jaguar could render 3D on the fly of standard of Lawnmower Man movie quality.


 Virgin UK wanted to use their Battlezone-esq game, Trap Shoot to do Battlezone 2000 for Jaguar CD And said Atari could not afford to pass up the new FPS by new developer, Bioware, called Metal Hive, had playable demo, said Atari needed this as a Jaguar exclusive... Virgin UK also made VERY clear Virgin USA did NOT want to be developing for Jaguar/Jaguar CD. 


Scott has been bloody fantastic in providing all that he has. Its shed new light on lot of titles and confirmed a lot of on-going research, with info direct from Atari that confirms info likes of myself and others pieced together, so we can finally close the door on an awful lot of B.S claims with multiple sources to provide PROOF to ego-bruised supposed experts who have been happy to use fabrications and single source claims when it suited them.




Atari I.O is rapidly becoming THE SITE to clear up THE Myths, once and for all and it's all down to people working as a COMMUNITY, not hording stuff for personal gain or EGO boosts.

#56 Lost Dragon

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 09:12 AM

Some..'debate' over status of Zzyroxx II, coder claimed mere 2 months from being finished over at MyAtari.net, yet sources who spoke to him since said he now claims it was barely a level or 2 finished.



Anywho, thanks as ever to Scott S's forwarded material.



James Pond 3 then.


Fax to Bill Rehbock from Pete Mortimer (Telegames UK)


Telegames had the Licence.


Millenium had a coder working on Jaguar version, there was code...



Only thing was..said coder and code..VANISHED.



Millenium could find niether, so as Telegames had the Amiga version code and Art, did ATARI want to develop/publish a version for Jaguar?



S0, it looks like James pond 3 status..is:started, code and coder :) Lost.



In same fax, Pete asks Atari IF they still want CD version of Ultimate B.Games as, per instruction, Teque had stopped work on the Cartridge version and Telegames rather wanted to do a PC CD version once Jag CD version was done.



At this rate we should be able to update those old Lost Jaguar game lists at cracking rate of knots.



Confirm new status, remove titles that were never started, sadly chalk up what appears lost forever etc.

Edited by Lost Dragon, 14 March 2017 - 01:11 PM.

#57 Swansea_Mariner


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Posted 15 March 2017 - 10:37 AM

The entire Batman Returns saga (2 developers listed) made for interesting reading.... Not sure if 1 can be mentioned as it's under an N.D.A. Demolition Man only 5 weeks away from being finished.

That's amazing about demolition man being only 5 weeks from being finished. I thought it was just the fmv bits out there but from this there should a virtually complete game. Is there any more Intel on this?

Edited by Swansea_Mariner, 15 March 2017 - 10:38 AM.

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#58 Lost Dragon

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Posted 15 March 2017 - 12:23 PM

There's the internal mail exchanges between Gleadow and Virgin, Virgin trying to reassure Atari it can be finished on time, Gleadlow voicing concerns over film licence expert date, quality being cut to get game delivered etc.

It makes for very interesting reading.

No idea if the other developer stuff can go public though N.D.A galore.

But yes the files Scott forwarded cleared up so much that those who spoke to Telegames, Beyond Games and Imagitec failed to find, despite talking direct to source.

#59 Swansea_Mariner


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Posted 15 March 2017 - 12:44 PM

Do we know how the fmv disc surfaced? Given this revelation there must be people out there that played it, seems you've just opened up a load of possibilities with this one - exciting Times!
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#60 Lost Dragon

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 03:09 AM

Make of it what you will..

Demolition Man Producer, Michael Merryn tells Atari Jaguar version is 5 weeks away from completion on fax dated Sept 8 1995...

Bob Gleadow tells Virgin on a fax dated 19 Sept 1995 he's not seen a demo from them since his last fax...

Tim Chaney of Virgin faxes Bob back saying Virgin certainly intend to finish Jaguar Demolition man but aren't so sure about Creature Shock and will present a new demo to Atari when it's complete and maybe Bob will change his mind based on this and won't cancel it...

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