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Mortal Kombat III running at E3 claim-I cannot find a shred of proof....


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#1 Lost Dragon

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Posted 12 January 2017 - 03:08 PM

So, browsing an Atari Jaguar site (i'll spare it's blushes :) ) i came across a little feature talking about MKIII on the Jaguar and the age old claims that...

 

1)Nudge Nudge someone knows someone (a collector) who's got a fully working copy of the game..say no more Sir, Say no more...walls have ears etc..which indeed might be true, i've no proof either way...

 

2)Then there's the claim that 1 person actually PLAYED it at E3...ergo Atari had it running and let the public try it..claim was something like 4 playable/selectable chacters etc?..basically it was far enough along to be shown to press...

 

 

Ok, so here's my personal issue with claim 2...

 

 

I was an avid magazine buyer/reader etc back during the Jaguar era, scrapbook bulging with pages from likes of Gamesmaster, Ultimate Future Games, Edge, C+VG etc etc..you name it.

 

Yes there was the annoucement in C+VG, plus comments afterwards in the Q+A pages, yes Ultimate Future games previewed it, but NO UK magazine as far as i'm aware ever saw an actual version running on the Jaguar, it's not mentioned in any coverage, be it Jaguar specific or E3 show report.

 

I've also never seen ANY USA based magazine claim they had played it, were shown it running behind closed doors etc.

 

It's not on ANY E3 video footage i've seen on YT or UK VHS covermount tape etc...

 

 

So, i did some further searching today whilst i was stuck at folks, car in garage etc...

 

 

So E3 May 1995?

 

 

Atari DO have a big E3 presence considering their limited funds compared to the might of Sega, Sony and Nintendo...let alone 3DO...

 

So, from what i've been able to piece together:

 

 

Nintendo had Mortal Kombat III being shown for the SNES

 

 

Sony also had what was described as an Arcade Perfect version of Mortal kombat III, running on Playstation, along with titles like:Tekken, Parasite (later canned) and Razorwing (also canned)

 

 

 

3DO had Space Hulk and Killing Time and were showing early Bulldog/M2 tech demo's (which we now know were fakes in a lot of cases)....

 

 

 

Sega:Had it's focus on Saturn titles like Bug, Virtua Fighter Remix and Daytona USA along with 32X titles like X-Men (canned), Rayman (apparently 32X only version that looked different due to colour banding), also canned and T-Mek (Canned)...so again lot of very early games footage, real or perhaps not, but message was these systems were the real deal...

 

 

 

Now Atari had a lot of titles on display at E3 and a lot of KEY Atari people and those from third party supporters were there (Dean Fox-Senior VP Marketing, Atari, Tim Huntsman-Beyond Games etc) and the likes of Don Thomas, Director of Atari Customer Service, were there for the entire duration and gave a very detailed day by day account for the period of Wens May 10th 1995 to sat 13th May 1995.

 

 

He also talked of:

 

 

 The various professional film crews attending the Atari stand capturing footage for the various magazines E3 coverage....

 

 

Atari giving sneak peaks of games like Burnout, but everyone wanted to see Doom...

 

An (un-named) Sega Employee commenting on just how crowded the Atari stand was, day in, day out-so clearly a LOT of visitors, Press and public alike, yet so far only 1 person seems to have witnessed MKIII on Jaguar? Hmnn.

 

Atari seemed to put the focus on Jaguar VR, (with the hardware running PC versions of planned Jag VR games?)

 

Software focus was on 4 KEY titles, each given seperate 'booth' with game running on big display screen...Titles being likes of Rayman-Thea Realm Fighters-Ultra Vortex etc...

 

 

Not a word on Jaguar Mortal Kombat III

 

 

Jeff Minter was also there, he later gave his personal thoughts on Atari's E3 and the Jaguar VR running Missile Command 3D...still nothing about MK III.....

 

Also there were:

 

 

Francois Bethrand there showcasing F.F.L moves...

 

 

 

Terry Grantham+Peter Mortimer of Telegames....

 

Sam Tramiel...

 

John Skruch...

 

The CEO of Virtuality...

 

Lance Lewis...

 

Plus you had various ACTORS for Thea Realm Fighters in attendance:

 

 

 

Daniel Pessina who'd played:Raiden, Scorpion, Reptile and Sub Zero in MK and MK II

 

And Hu Sung Pak who'd played Lui Kang.

 

 

 

So no shortage of people who would of been 'in' on any FLAGSHIP titles Atari had running at the event.

 

 

 

Other games featured appear to be:

 

 

White Men Can't Jump,Defender 2000, Battlesphere, Highlander Jag CD, Hover Hunter, Fight For Life, Hyper Force, Air Cars, Power Drive Rally, Deathwatch, Baldies, Ruiner Pinball, Nerf Max Force, Soul Star Jag CD (*Pre-Rendered Demo), Primal Rage Jag CD (*Appears 2 versions, early, non-playable version, then changed to to an early version which lacked things like collision detection).... 

Skyhammer running code dated:9-15-94.

Phear also said to be running....

 

Defender 2000 and Thea Realm Fighters said to be running from flash carts, Defender 2K lacked in game music as a result...

 

 

 

Thea Realm Fighters was reported as only having 4 playable characters, of which only 1 had any special moves you could pull off.

 

 

 

Sounding familar?

 

 

As for Select Invite only, hush hush Jaguar projects, the BIG title appears to be Caves Of Fear

 

 

So people seem quite clued up to what was running from what, when later code shown etc, which games stood out, there's simply nothing on MK II, except a COMMENT made by 1 person attending that...

 

 

"..Everyone thought Thea Realm Fighters was MKIII as they walked past".

 

 

So, for myself, given what evidence there is, is it not possible the claim is simply a case of mistaken I.D?

 

The person had in fact played Jaguar Thea Realm Fighters, but seen the Mortal Kombat actors at the atari stand and had played MKIII on either SNES or PS1?.,

 

 

No shame in a hazy or confused memory.

 

 

 

I just cannot find any evidence of Jag MKIII being playable and thus it joins this mythical John Carmac talking about Jaguar Quake being started that Jaguar fans often cling onto...

 

 

Previousily it was Tomb Raider was started on Jaguar CD based on screens Atari/Edge had in an advertising supplement, which, thanks to Core design's PR guy, Richard Barcl. we now know were fakes and Atari/Edge knew and still ran with.

 

 

Big post, but as we are trying to get the def.answers to what became of the BIG titles on Jaguar, i felt it important to present the 'evidence' as it stands.

 

 

So far, it basically does 'run' with idea previousioly put forward that Atari simply felt with Kasumi Ninja, Ultra Vortex, Dragon:B.L.S, Double Dragon 5 and Thea Realm Fighters, it simply didn't need MKIII it had enough 2D fighters as was.

 

 

I'd welcome any thoughts and would be delighted to be proved wrong and someone step forward with proof this game was well under way on Jaguar.


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#2 Lost Dragon

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Posted 12 January 2017 - 03:14 PM

As far as UK Trade shows: ECTS (London)...Atari showcasing 24 games inc Burnout, Blue Lightning Jag CD, Soulstar Jag CD, Highlander Jag CD, F1 Racer, F.F.L, Conan, Ultra Vortex etc.

 

 

The BIG NEWS was E.A signing on... :)

 

They also had MPEG footage of Creature Shock and demolition Man-so clearly happy to show footage from other versions to 'suggest' how Jaguar CD versions would look.

 

 

So would they really hide MK III away?.


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#3 Rowsdower70

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Posted 12 January 2017 - 06:41 PM

As far as UK Trade shows: ECTS (London)...Atari showcasing 24 games inc Burnout, Blue Lightning Jag CD, Soulstar Jag CD, Highlander Jag CD, F1 Racer, F.F.L, Conan, Ultra Vortex etc.

 

 

The BIG NEWS was E.A signing on... :)

 

They also had MPEG footage of Creature Shock and demolition Man-so clearly happy to show footage from other versions to 'suggest' how Jaguar CD versions would look.

 

 

So would they really hide MK III away?.

I would think not.   Having MK III buzz is  exactly what Jaguar needed, and would open the doors for even more 3rd party support.   


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#4 atarilbc

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Posted 12 January 2017 - 11:18 PM

The whole MK3 license always bothered me. Although I'm sure that it would have been decent, another 2D fighter was hardly worth their energy.

A few years ago someone in the community - I forget whom - found and shared this milestone payment sheet dated 9/15/95: http://www.atarimuse...64-payments.PDF

As you can see, through August '95 only $180K of $600K obligated had been paid to the software developer (Probe) for the Jaguar port. A whopping $375K (of $750k) had been paid to Williams for the license and probably art assets. It is unlikely a playable game was ready in June if that's as far as they had gotten.

You can also see how much Atari was spending on licensing existing properties - NHL, MK3, Batman Forever, Magic Carpet, NBA Jam and the like. I understand that this was an effort to have name brand titles, but let's be frank - these games were on every other platform. What makes the Jaguar great are the original tiles like Tempest 2K, Missile Command 3D, AVP, Battlemorph, Zero5, Iron Soldier, and Skyhammer. They needed to put more energy into developing truly great original titles and should have skipped the multiplatform conversions.

Edited by atarilbc, 12 January 2017 - 11:19 PM.

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#5 Clint Thompson

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Posted 13 January 2017 - 01:02 AM

Great post and even better points well made. As much as many of us would have liked to had MKIII on the Jaguar CD, no proof exists that any of it remains. I can't help but feel though that some sort of development was started on it if they've put forward even that much money but that doesn't translate into a playable E3 demo.

It seeemed Atari was more interested in their own fighters more so than MKIII. Arguably one of the biggest titles for all consoles and no real review or preview of it running on the Jaguar. Probably got cannned really soon after Jack Tramiel came back and took over after Sam was hospitalized. Why waste $600k more when the writing was on the wall.
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#6 Lost Dragon

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Posted 13 January 2017 - 07:02 AM

Great to hear responses so far, keep'em coming...

 

From developer interviews i've done/read online etc, everyone knew pretty quickly Jaguar was pretty much DOA....it, like the Saturn was a nightmare to get 3D running well on and when big name titles like Doom simply weren't selling in numbers, no one was going to invest time in coding around hardware bugs etc.

 

 

You can see from comments made by likes of ATD that they simply wanted to finish contractual obligations with Atari, get Jaguar development finished and crack on with PS1 development, as that's where the money was.

 

 

I still feel Probe's Primal Rage on Jag CD was a prime case of just finish it, get the money and move resources on project, hence the smaller sprites, long loading times.It was never going to be an optimised for Jaguar title...can't prove it as no-one from Probe wanted to talk about it, as soon as i mentioned it, all comms stopped :)

 

 

I think people badly wanted Jaguar/Jag CD to make an impact, hell i know i did...but the truth is, we were misslead....far too often...

 

 

Fake screens promising titles like Tomb Raider, Freelancer 2120 (another title that as of yet, NO actual, running footage has ever been seen), promises of the biggest names appearing on Jaguar like Quake, Mortal Kombat III etc.

 

 

 

The Press aspect alone has been bad, but waters made muddier still by self proclaimed 'experts' posting up colour coded status of...type guides with finished, finished but lost etc etc with no sources to back up claims.

 

 

Things like Conan stated as 2 levels complete, Freelancer 2120 finished, lost etc, utter nonsense as PR statements released in '95 explaining Freelancer canned, moved to PS1, Conan coder once found and emails exchanged said 1st level wasn't even finished, Thalion:never had any Jaguar projects etc.

 

 

These expert claims turned out to be crap likes of ST Format etc passed off as fact and should of been credited as just that, it's what Unseen64/GTW do....list source, explain what's been done to find out just how true claim was.

 

 

 

The quake John Carmac interview, he had it running on Jaguar..many still swear blind is true, they read it, but can't name where or when...

 

 

Really? with so many old mags scanned, put online, Carmac's interviews collected, avaiable for free download in PDF and yet it still remains unseen, despite his many other chats about how he could of re-coded Doom for better performance on Jaguar, what he liked/disliked about hardware, clear as day?.

 

 

We are supposed to buy into fact he simply never chats about the abandoned Jaguar Quake port? Hmmmnn.


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#7 Clint Thompson

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Posted 14 January 2017 - 06:05 PM

Believe what you will, MK3 exists on the Jaguar: ;-)

 

mkiii.jpg mkiii2.jpg

 

...but anyone with gimp/photoshop capabilities can make bold claims.

 

I think another thing to point out is that MK3 wasn't even compiled on the PC until September of 1995 and the SNES version of MKIII didn't come until June of 1996! June! It's easy to say that development for the Jaguar CD would have been at the very bottom of the list and even if it had been on the actual list, it probably wouldn't have come before the SNES version.

 

 

 

 


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#8 Lost Dragon

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Posted 14 January 2017 - 08:30 PM

:) Anyone who's worked in the Games Industry can and indeed has made bold claims....

 

History is piled high with mock up shots:

 

Rubicon (Amiga), Tomb Raider (cough..Jaguar CD, sorry Next Gen CD system), Toki (ZX Spectrum), Batman The Movie (Amiga, but mock up shots used in advert, created on Amstrad CPC) (Nemesis-Konami coin-op) ZX Spectrum, Adam Caveman C64/A8, Freelancer 2120 Jag CD..ohh they are from PC CD version you say? :)...Time Crystal (Nes)..mock up screens created on the Amiga....

 

Day Of The Tentacle Amiga Demo Disk (hoax).

 

 

Etc etc etc....

 

 

GTW and Unseen64 are still uncovering more false advertising, previews etc to date.

 

That's before you have areas's of the ATARI community making up batshit claims or even worse editing 3DO footage to make bit appear like it was Jaguar CD footage, honest...

 

 

 

Following on from that C+VG News report i leant someone, years back, which is now all over the web along with my Freelancer 2120 scrapbook page, AVP and atari Karts reviews (C+VG), Lynx coverage from GO! Magazine etc....

 

 

Of you look at answer they gave to a reader asking about Jaguar MKIII they said Sony had snuck in a secured a 6 month exclusive release deal so it would be out 1st, all other versions to follow after...

 

I sent Shinto a stack of info on Probe's Primal Rage conversions and they had a clear pecking order to them, so MK III would of been treated exactly the same i'm sure.



#9 Lost Dragon

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Posted 14 January 2017 - 09:10 PM

Basically Genesis version of Primal Rage took over 9 months to code, even when 1 character still to be implemented it clocked in at 32 Meg, only had 24 Meg cart to fit it on, cue lot of compression work.

 

It was made crystal clear that Genesis was lead version, Saturn, Game Gear and 32X versions to follow.

 

With the Amiga version? team were given coin-op's graphic data (plus sound, but couldn't use that, too much data) but had to wait to get Genesis code for game logic, as both machines used the 68000 CPU.

 

Amiga Press were using Genesis Screens in early previews, but being 100% honest and explaining these were from the console, not actual Amiga screens...

 

 

The Playstation version appears to be next high priority, with Saturn version being ported from it...

 

 

So how on earth Atari could of had a playable version of MK III at a trade show, when apparently only versions in such a state were SNES and PS1, not even Sega had a Genesis version on display, just boggles my mind...



#10 Lost Dragon

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Posted 14 January 2017 - 09:19 PM

Right so:

 

MK3 was originally due to be released for the Atari Jaguar in the second quarter of 1996, according to a joint press release issued by Atari and Williams Entertainment on March 13, 1995... along with a  port for the 3DO, which was due for an early 1996 release..Saturn version also due Q2, '96

 

 

Looking at North America releases:

 

PS1 Oct 7 1995

 

SNES Oct 13 1995

 

Game Boy Nov 1995

 

The Game Gear version only saw a European release in 1996

 

Genesis version sites just say 1995...

 

 

As for PC version..erm, there appears to be 2 versions...

 

 

Inital DOS version, then upgraded release for Windows'95, this later version (Sept 1996) is a port from the PS1 version?.

 

 

No, i'm sorry, so many versions, only so many (human) resources that could of been allocated at any 1 time..you can see how PS1 version used as basis for Primal Rage and then MK III for other formats...

 

I just honestly cannot see work on Jaguar MK III being at stage where it's able to be used as basis for a conversion too..let alone shown in playable form at E3.

 

I'm NOT saying it was never started, just i've yet to see anything to suggest it was as far along as the Jaguar massive would perhaps of wanted it to be...


Edited by Lost Dragon, 14 January 2017 - 09:29 PM.


#11 Clint Thompson

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Posted 14 January 2017 - 10:14 PM

I'm pretty sure Carl with Songbird has already asked about it because he was always trying to acquire Jaguar games to release and then actually got the license from Midway for some things like Total Carnage. I want to say he mentioned something about it a long time ago but don't remember the details since that was probably a decade ago.
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#12 Lost Dragon

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Posted 15 January 2017 - 10:36 AM

Looking at 3DO version then..

Mac development disks along with artwork have been recovered, code seems based around PlayStation version?

So at least here we have proof of what was started, which version used for conversion basis...
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#13 Lost Dragon

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 01:46 PM

Ok 1995 ECTS Show...

 

Found another report from the show...

 

Again, mentions:F.F.L, Primal Rage, AOTMP, Fever Pitch, Defender 2000 (running 2000 Mode only), Supercross 3D, Rayman, Pitfall:M.A, Blue Lightning etc etc....

 

 

NO MK III

 

Bill Rehbock and sam Tramiel present-so again, IF game existed in advanced, playable form, these 2 would be doing everything they could to showcase it to the press.

 

 

Sept'95 Ted Hoff asked what titles does he feel are going to be THE stand out Jaguar titles in coming months:

 

Battlesphere, Black Ice White Noise, Primal Rage, Max Force will be the strongest SOFTWARE titles but the Jaguar CD will be the killer release.



#14 Lost Dragon

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 01:46 PM

So, i looked into the big Press Day Atari held at their HQ (Fun N Games Day), basically spelling out important role Jaguar/Jaguar CD had to play in next half of the year (late Summer'95 onwards), no expense spared to get Press on board and convince them Atari were a major player, offering the cheapest Next Gen system going and again, NOTHING on MK III and this event took place AFTER the inital Atari Press Release about Williams bringing MK III to the Jaguar.

 

Just the same games mentioned as above, with Ultra Vortex now becoming Ultra Vortek....

 

Some murmurings about vague possibilty of Phase zero (previousily known as Hover Hunter) offering Jag VR support and 3 Jags-3 TV's Mode...

 

 

Space war 2000, Brett Hull Hockey running, Pitfall arriving late in the event...

 

 

FMV only for Jag CD games planned such as Varuna's Forces, Max Force and Commander Blood.

 

 

Also each attendee was given a Jaguar 'Press Video' which had footage of games not showcased at actual event:Primal rage, Hover Strike:U.L, Dragons Lair and Thea Realm Fighters.

 

 

Add to this:

 

Ted Hoff had made clear that by this time in Jaguar life, each product had a Product Manager...

 

 

Yet no-one from Atari OR Williams listed MKIII Atari Jaguar, on their C.V as far as i'm aware.

 

I stumbled across my Lynx Rolling Thunder contact purely by accident as it was listed on his online C.V, ditto Guildo H talking about Panther development, yet never found a manager, artist, coder, musician etc that ever worked on Jaguar MK III, not from Williams, Probe or Atari.

 

 

Only thing i can find after that inital P.R statement is Ted Hoff mentioning MK III as 1 of the titles Atari had taken an active role in getting underway, but that could just mean Atari sought out Williams, signed a contract, nothing more....



#15 Lost Dragon

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Posted 21 January 2017 - 08:47 AM

Atari's reasoning why Mortal Kombat II never appeared on Jaguar speak volumes also:

 

 

 

Dan Thomas:" MK2 and other unannounced properties are always possibilities pending agreements with the companies that own them. In the meantime, we have several great fighting games that will compete with MK2 very well."

 

 

This is the vibe i cannot shake with MK III either, Atari simply felt they had more than enough fighting games with Primal Rage on Jag CD, Thea Realm Fighters in the works, 2D wise, MK III simply wasn't needed....espically when the Atari feeling is echoed again by...

 

 

 Bill.Rehbock:"Williams has no control over MK II for Jaguar. Greg Fishbach at Acclaim does. All I can say is both Kasumi

and Ultra Vortex more than make up for the fact that Acclaim doesn't want to support Jaguar".


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#16 Clint Thompson

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Posted 22 January 2017 - 01:33 AM

Kasumi Ninja will make up for NOTHING lol... what a disgrace. Ultra Votek was awesome, or at least I always thought so. It got a lot of shit but really was unique and super cool - I beat the game the first day I owned it and would continue to play that with friends over an entire summer, just so much fun.


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#17 Lost Dragon

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 12:33 PM

LMAO.

 

Looking back at UK Magazine, Ultimate Future Games THE BIG ONE feature about upcoming Jaguar games,

 

Yes THE feature where they claim Jaguar Quake is 30% complete but at same time they admit they have only seen EARLY PC screens..so are we expected to believe Carmac started cracking on Jaguar Quake before even finishing PC version?

 

They have Jaguar MK3 down as 89% complete.

 

British Press..awful then, awful now.


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#18 marigul

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Posted 06 February 2017 - 06:41 PM

As someone who worked on MK 3 for a bit..it is possible that an intro screen or something was created to justify the developer getting paid. Usually we would have a contract signing payment, but the 1st milestone could have required getting something up and running, usually to satisfy this people would just have rudimentary code running so they could get some $$$. That being said not sure if the above screenshot is legit or not.


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#19 Lost Dragon

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Posted 06 February 2017 - 06:51 PM

Do you mind if I ask which version you worked on?

Always fantastic to hear from commercial coders,artists etc.

yep the mock up shot was common practice over here for years, so many list games likes of Unseen64 and GTW invested turned up same results, screens we saw in magazines at Preview or even review stage either created just to give press something to get behind or taken from unfinished versions, work then passed onto someone else, scrapped etc.

#20 marigul

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Posted 06 February 2017 - 08:36 PM

It was the Jag version of MK3...It was a while ago so my memory is a bit fuzzy, but if Atari paid money against the project there probably was some rudimentary code written like a title or menu select screen. That is possible, but I don't think there was anything playable. It is also possible that it was meant to be MK 2 but we pushed for MK 3 since MK 2 was done by that point. I also think it may have been part of larger deal w/ acclaim as we got MK 3 but had to take Big Hurt,etc. This is kind of the way the accolade deal was done, where the overall costs were amortized over a bunch of games of varying quality. 


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