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F1 Racer (Aka World Tour Racing) Atari tester report

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#1 Lost Dragon

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Posted 07 July 2017 - 12:07 PM

Another gem made possible thanks to Scott Stilphen.


I love the 100% honesty in this one, the guy knows Jaguar, even with CD Drive attached, isn't capable of matching 3DO Need For speed, let alone Saturn Daytona USA, so suggests key areas where WTR could be 'better' than these 2.


It made me openly chuckle to see supposed Atari experts talking about Jaguar cleaner textures than PS1 and how Hoverstrike on Jag CD had better 3D/Texture Mapping than PS1 Krazy Ivan-a game set in broad daylight as opposed to Hoverstrike U.L taking place on dark side of various moons etc :)


And who using said Hoverstrike U.L Game engine Jaguar CD could of pulled off decent conversions of things like.. NFS



Why not take leaf out of atari's own book, praise a Jaguar CD game for what it's doing, but be 100% honest about hardware's limits?.

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#2 A31Chris


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Posted 07 July 2017 - 09:08 PM

I'm glad the remarks by the supposed experts of cleaner polygons made you chuckle. But those same supposed experts pointed us to where we can all go look at these videos we can all see the textures for ourselves. We don't have to take his word for it, Atari's word for it, the developers word for it, your word for it or anyone's word for it. We can go look and see for ourselves and compare for ourselves. Or have you hoped that we would forget?

This is a strange game you play but I guess you're having fun.

Edited by A31Chris, 07 July 2017 - 09:09 PM.

#3 A31Chris


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Posted 08 July 2017 - 01:46 AM

I just watched a video of Crazy Ivan. I think it's using voxels rather than polygon for terrain.

Edited by A31Chris, 08 July 2017 - 01:46 AM.

#4 Lost Dragon

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 06:42 AM

They do make me chuckle, even now, as they think people will simply not notice the tricks Hoverstrike U.L uses to get around the hardware limitations of the Jaguar...game set in permenant dark enviroments...it's nothing to be ashamed of, Skyhammer used same trick, as did G-Police on PS1, but when people then ask viewers to compare it with PS1 titles set in a daytime enviroment, so much bigger draw distance, rather than using like for like examples which exist on PS1, i know it's desperation talking...but then 50% of them aren't coders themselves they just copy n paste the claims that suit.



I also understand people aren't blinkered and can judge any comments for themselves, nor do i forget the other claims these supposed experts have made over the years nor the sources they simply took them from, but didn't credit or did you think i and others had forgotten that?.



I also know how easy it is to put critiscm's direct to the coders in todays connected era, rather than just say they were poor coders/lazy etc..just approach them, be constructive, see what they say, if they want to talk at all.



But then the experts are now found on YT slagging off Rebellion's Skyhammer for not pushing Jaguar hard enough, but they themselves fail to point out lead coder left Rebellion before coding was finished, had to be called back to make changes Atari wanted, so no, i don't see them as unbiased experts.



And to suggest the Hoverstrike U.L engine should of been used for potential conversions of NFS or Daytona USA..now that was funny..what would we of seen? the Night Time Editions on Jaguar?.



What i do take at face value is Lee B. talking of the games development, how he sensibly used the hardware, how code was optimised further, yet sadly we never saw a finished game use it and i respect the honesty of the comments made in the report submitted to Atari.


I'll happily take that over the rabid fanboy drivel that's often spoken of the Jaguar's untapped power as these people have lied to Nolan Bushnell, lied about speaking to Jeff Minter, attempted to pass 3DO footage off as Jaguar footage, in attempt to make a product more viable for sale...


And i'm still waiting (it's been nigh on 7 years now) for thier proof Jaguar Quake was started-They swear they read Carmack say it in an interview, ok so where is it?


They swear MK 3 was playable at E3/CES etc..yet no-one covered it from the Press?


And they were putting those Tomb Raider screens around as actual proof game started on Jaguar CD, screens which i myself took time to look into, were confirmed as utter fakes, i spoke to the very person from Core design P.R who gave them to said press and told them they were fakes..but no-one has corrected their original claims based o the new source confirmed info...so it appears the experts would still rather peddle the lies.......



I don't play games with research, nor do i with hold information.



This isn't Atari Age Chris, maybe your approach would be better suited on there?


It's funny, i had a feeling as soon as the documents went up, there would be an..increase in activity, saw it on Unseen64, Atarimania FB page, Assembler etc..now here.


Jaguar community is nothing if not so predictable.


I'll happily discuss any topic, but it'll be done based on information gained and with stone cold realism, not wide eyed speculation or from as biased viewpoint.



Jaguar gets treated no differently from any other format i bring information on to places like here.




ATD, Probe, Tiertex, Imagitec, Atari Corp, Virgin, Rebellion, Domark, I.D, HVS etc were not gods nor fools, what they were, is people taking my money, so damn straight i'll put  critiscm their way and put up any/all information that comes to light adding extra depth to a games development.


But your fully aware of that.....



Nice to see you posting, but the mind game crap..yeah try Atari Age..it doesn't wash on here.



We share information freely here.

Edited by Lost Dragon, 08 July 2017 - 09:12 AM.

#5 Lost Dragon

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 07:36 AM

Regarding  your...statement i'm playing strange games/having fun:




You yourself played a rather strange game questioning Dave Taylor's coding skill's on Jaguar Doom on AA a few weeks back, or had you hoped we'd forgotten that?


You yet again were caught quoting SPECULATION about what Jaguar MIGHT of been able to do Vs what PS1 actually did...



You described Dave Taylor as:


Not a fantastic coder..that he used my interview to whine about the Jaguar..very true, many people i've spoken to were very open about how they personally felt, hardware was awful/vile/wretched etc etc....you claimed the Jaghuar showed him up as a coder...yet how much experience had you yourself had?....



You then changed your view, funnily enough....




Dave was now a good coder, you just felt he wasn't very good when coding Jag Doom, yet he did this after his work on Wolfenstien 3D so are you saying his skill set went backwards?....


Prior to that:




You attacked Rebellion for not having watched any of the Alien films prior to developing the game...



Remind me again, please just how close Konami's Aliens or Sega's Alien 3;The gun, coin-op games were to the film?


Or Probe software's Alien 3 on Amiga/Genesis?



We even pointed out Rebellion had 20TH Century Fox advising/watching over everything, let alone Andrew Whittaker, who'd earlier worked with H.R Giger on Darkseed and GIGER, 20TH Century FOX and ATARI CORP APPROACHED HIM to help DESIGN and DEVELOP AVP on Jaguar, Rebellion themselves just needed to CODE IT.


In his very own words:


He studied the films solidily for months before coming up with the AVP Game Design on Jaguar...


ATD were accused of being lazy by you as were Probe, for the Primal Rage conversion, i'm sure before making that statement you took into account FACT by developing this on Jaguar CD the team were unable to be put to work on any Playstation/Saturn titles, that game was headed for an add-on for a device who's user base was pityful, so of course team should of made it really special, it being released on countless other formats wasn't going to impact sales in way was it?...




Calm, collected logic always at forefront before you made a statement.


Did you have better luck perhaps than i did? i managed to find the coder of Jag CD Primal Rage, emailed him to get the lowdown, sadly never had a reply back...



Or did you think people had forgotten these examples?



Still, as long as you were having fun...right?

Edited by Lost Dragon, 08 July 2017 - 09:35 AM.

#6 Lost Dragon

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 08:30 AM

And bottom line is, the EXPERTS can quote Tech Specs for A3Chris or anyone else to rattle off until the cows come home, but until someone produces 3D on Jaguar to beat:


Battlesphere, I.S II, Skyhammer, Zero 5, Towers II, WTR, Hoverstrike U.L, FFL, Robinson's Req.etc etc...

It's meaningless......and reason so much is claimed, is because we all know no-one is going to attempt even this level of coding, at least Gorf had the honesty to admit it wasn't even worth trying.


Lets see someone attempt a Mech Game with texture-mapping to equal 32X Metal Head or produce a 2D Fighter to equal SSF2 or Way Of The Warrior on 3DO 



Jaguar Robinson's Req. had advantages over 3DO version, better looking FMV, better shading etc so it's another example i'd use of Jaguar power being put to great use, rather than video footage of something like Dactyl Joust or Phase Zero.


Why the more vocal supporters of the Jaguar can't simply point to flagship Commercial Jaguar products that were finished, pushed hardware and were ahead of their time (Skyhammer) rather than falling back on unfinished games running on video or on-paper speculation is beyond me.


Celebrate what was achived without straying into fantasy land claims about it out doing the PS1 or N64...


It couldn't match key 32X games..Hmnn FFL vs 32X Virtua Fighter?


Metal Head or I S II (visually Metal Head, but gameplay I s II by a Country Mile)?


Virtua Racing or C.F II?


If it games being played, they aren't coming from myself, having owned a Jaguar, 32X, Saturn, PS1 and N64 i know what was achived on each system and fantasy babble won't change that.



The documents were intended to add extra layer to 1 of the Jaguar's best games, not bring all the fanboys to the yard..but hey it's Jaguar related so what was i expecting?.

Edited by Lost Dragon, 08 July 2017 - 08:58 AM.

#7 A31Chris


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Posted 08 July 2017 - 10:02 AM

He was talking about clean textured polygons. Not dark or distance. Has no bearing on that.

The actual textures themselves we can all see. Not distance. Not amount drawn.

You misdirect with walls of words. I guess when your facts don't speak for themselves.

Enjoy your game.

#8 Lost Dragon

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 10:36 AM

Chris...mate, just let go of the spade here, your once again making things far worse for yourself.




The Wall Of words as you describe it, sadly had to be done as this your history..you questioned mine, so only fair people were familar with yours.


I know it never works, at best you back down on your opinion of a coder, rather than admit you made a gaff and actually Atari had people in place to ensure the accuracy to the Alien Films in AVP and fact Sega, Konami, Probe only used them for barest reference for thier Alien games.


As for facts, even when presented with them, you still choose to dwell in this mythical fantasy world of the Jaguar that might of been, not that was.



As for my mocking of people comparing Jag CD Hoverstrike to PS1 Krazy Ivan:


You were the 1 on Atari Age trying to compare the PC-to Jaguar conversion of Doom (FPS) to a game written from scratch for the Jaguar hardware, that wasn't even a FPS itself..you choose to put Doom up agains't White Men Can't Jump.


I know it's a full moon, but just WOW.

Edited by Lost Dragon, 08 July 2017 - 11:47 AM.

#9 Lost Dragon

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 10:44 AM

Getting swiftly back on topic of WTR..

Lee talked openly of his improved WTR Game Engine, faster,cleaner code as he put it..along with plans for another racing game and an Olympics game on Jaguar..

However he also admitted you really needed more powerful hardware than the Jaguar to do texture mapped racing games...

#10 Lost Dragon

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 11:27 AM

And you can use WTR as a nice timeline of Lee's Racing games, starting out with his Amiga Racing Game:



#11 Lost Dragon

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 11:30 AM

Then his early work on the Jaguar game, when it was planned to be the Jaguar's answer to Virtua Racing..Lee/Teque far more suited than Rebellion for this task.


Game to be on a 16 Megabit cartridge:



Atari then decide plain polygon look is too dated, Jaguar needs to be seen to be competing head on with 3DO and Saturn etc, 'pressure' is put on Lee  to do heavy texture-mapping, so game overhauled, GPU used...game very nice, great A.I, but frame rate does suffer in more detailed areas.


(I suspect this could of been improved if not fully ironed out using the cleaner, faster code he had):





This is an ideal showcase for how Game engines could be overhauled and more achived on Jaguar, without drifting into speculation.

Edited by Lost Dragon, 08 July 2017 - 11:41 AM.

#12 A31Chris


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Posted 08 July 2017 - 12:10 PM

Far worse for myself? Oh geez if you say so I guess it must be true.

Keep on posting walls of text. Advertising goes a long way. You'll be able to fool a lot of people. I know. I work in retail. Advertise enough and people believe it.

#13 Lost Dragon

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 12:36 PM



At best your bloody tiresome.


At worst your bringing nothing to the table here, sorry but your not.


You work in retail..good on you...



Hell your Dad might be bigger than my Dad...yada yadda yadda...but that's got nothing to do with any point your struggling  to get across here.



You like to quote non-commercial coders about potential 3D Powahhh of the Jaguar, see it's easy anyone can do it:




     "Look for G2K on PC or Dreamcast. Jag is dead, impossible to

     program and just plain futile to bother with anymore. The

     machine was too little too late even though it was the first

     NG machine out. Atari blew it and I am not going to waste

     any more time trying to get a reasonably fast 3D engine to

     work. Too many bugs in hardware to work around and the Jag

     could never pull of what the PC and Dreamcast can do for Gorf

     2000. Sorry for the disappointment but that is how it stands

     at this point. If 4Play licenses its BattleSphere engine to

     us then we may reconsider but I refuse to battle the beast

     known as the Atari Jaguar anymore"




And in that quote alone that's why you feel safe in the fantasy bubble, you know damn well no-ones going to serious 3D coding on  the Jaguar, for the exact reasons Gorf was honest enough to admit above.


Now do you want to derail this thread even further?


Simple fact is there's enough examples of Jaguar games that got more from the system when moved from Cart to CD and more coding done on GPU etc than anyone should go hand in hand into Pixie land chasing Unicorns and Rainbows.

Edited by Lost Dragon, 08 July 2017 - 12:41 PM.

#14 Lost Dragon

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 12:59 PM

And F-It, i'll bite :)



You asked in the Dactyl Joust thread for a game that matched what HVS had got from Jaguar, Resolution wise etc?


You don't have to look very far..Towers 2....enhanced Falcon port (extra 6 months work done on Jag version) and i quote:


"The game runs at a resolution of 320x200 with 65000 colors, ingame music and stereo sound effects at 41.4Khz."


Speed put at somewhere between AVP+Doom.







Now unless your source can tell us that video footage had full in game music and SFX running at 41.4Khz and 65,000 colours onscreen.........plus of course full A.I etc etc

#15 Lost Dragon

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 01:11 PM

But hey if you really want to derail the thread i created, lets not F-about here:


Resolution it is then, over to Mike Fulton, who you yourself have used quotes from in the past to get your point across;




   "Jaguar's resolution isn't really a factor as far as this goes.

   However, as long as we're on the subject, strictly speaking, the

   Jaguar's video resolution is programmable, so some games may have a

   resolution of 320x200, some games may have 384x240, some may have 740X480 and so forth"


looks like HVS fell short on the bigger numbers then...


And i assume your talking NTSC resolutions, not Pal....

Edited by Lost Dragon, 08 July 2017 - 01:17 PM.

#16 Lost Dragon

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 01:37 PM

Vain attempt to take control of this old wagon once more:


Lets hear from Lee himself regarding the game:



LB: We had some other projects at Teque which never got very far as Atari 

was dying at the time. There was another racing game that was loosely 

planned, which would reuse some code from WTR, but with a cleaner faster 3D 

engine (the WTR engine suffered from being pulled about by the whims of a 

dozen different people).





He also talked about  a huge amount of the game being  was written in RISC, how time consuming and very difficult to debug...it was...


He felt the Jaguar's RISC processors were fairly nice,  and not  really that different from the SH-2's featured in the Sega Saturn...



He openly admits it was ATARI who wanted wanted texture mapping with everything, simply because they felt that they had to take on the competition in the visual stakes stakes, even knowing hardware simply wasn't up to it....



Lee admits game plays better at faster frame rate, will reach 30 FPS with Texture Mapping turned off...


And wasn't that impressed with the hardware spec's he had seen for the Jaguar MK II



#17 Lost Dragon

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 01:42 PM

Lee also talked of Atari not building in any real debugging support for the Jaguar hardware...


He wasn't a fan of the CD Drive:


[LB] The CD hardware was shoddy, the only thing it had going for it was the 

VLM, it had bugger all sex appeal and the market instantly summed it up as 

a cheap device that made your Jag look like a toilet.


Add on units have never really worked in the console market, the Jag should 

have stayed as a pure cartridge machine, with all the development effort 

being pushed into producing games.



The Jag was a machine with a price advantage compared to the competition. 

Instead of capitalizing on this Atari produced an unattractive add-on unit 

and then transferred lots of the games that were in development to the CD 




Hopefully this thread can now stay on topic, but i fear that might be asking far too much....

#18 A31Chris


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Posted 08 July 2017 - 02:17 PM

OMG what a wall.

Towers II is not polygons.

White Men Can't Jump colors muted I disagree I think if the colors were any less muted they'd be fluorescent. For a 3D bit map game that game is beautiful.

It controls fine the animation is a little rough and floaty but control is okay.

#19 A31Chris


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Posted 08 July 2017 - 02:19 PM

It's clear you have agenda. I guess we all do. So go ahead have fun. Anybody wants to look at your walls and text and not decide for themselves what's really going on then okay that's on them.

#20 Lost Dragon

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 02:37 PM

Since i've been an active poster here since Oct 2015, have recieved over 2,400 likes for my posts and material, where as you, you insufferable, dribbling idiot, until a few days ago had a post count of 4...and continue to  be a laughing stock over your nonsense regarding the bloody Jaguar on Atari Age..yeah you bet you clearly have an agenda and people can and indeed have read my 'walls' and decided for themselves...and i hope they continue to do so.


Walls normally help keep unwelcome 'quests' out, epic fail on my count.


You were a tiresome bore on AA, your just acting as pollution on here.



We welcome everyone, but we hope they can add to the Community here, but so far i've yet to see a single insight or piece of useful information you have to offer.


If you don't plan on discussing WTR then kindly vacate the thread.


Irt's very rare i loose my cool with morons online but your a special case alright.

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