Star Trek

[Justin]

On 1/16/2019 at 10:08 PM, nosweargamer said:

Taking a look at the Star Trek USS Vengeance by Hot Wheels:

 

 

Cool review! I never knew Hot Wheels made little models like that! I'm a longtime trek fan 🖖 but not as much the Kelvin Timeline etc. but that was a great looking starship. Hot Wheels did a cool job with Azteking the paint.

[nosweargamer]

15 hours ago, Justin said:

Cool review! I never knew Hot Wheels made little models like that! I'm a longtime trek fan 🖖 but not as much the Kelvin Timeline etc. but that was a great looking starship. Hot Wheels did a cool job with Azteking the paint.

Yeah, I was excited to see this first movie and thought it was fine, saw the second and thought it was decent, but I have yet to see the third, and really don't have a big desire too. Looking back, I guess I didn't find the first two films that memorable,since I can't remember much about them now, lol. 

In other Trek news, my wife and I recently completed watching the original series and have moved onto Next Gen.

[RickR]

5 hours ago, nosweargamer said:

Yeah, I was excited to see this first movie and thought it was fine, saw the second and thought it was decent, but I have yet to see the third, and really don't have a big desire too. Looking back, I guess I didn't find the first two films that memorable,since I can't remember much about them now, lol. 

In other Trek news, my wife and I recently completed watching the original series and have moved onto Next Gen.

The third one is the most forgettable one of them all.  An alien lady that calls Scotty "Mr. Scotty" is about all I remember.  #2 had Honeydew Cumberbun as Khan and a bunch of other hooey. 

I made it through watching TOS, TNG, and DS9, but I stopped at Season 2 of Voyager because I thought it was really not that good.  I may or may not go back to it.  We'll see.  DS9 was MUCH better than I remember it originally.  Voyager was much worse IMO. 

[Justin]

48 minutes ago, RickR said:

DS9 was MUCH better than I remember it originally.  Voyager was much worse IMO. 

I agree with that completely. DS9 really tested the limits of Federation ideology. "It's easy to be a saint in paradise" was a line originally written for Picard that was cut from a TNG script and ended up in Sisko's mouth on DS9. Very true.

Have been viewing both this winter and realized just how deep the writing and acting was on DS9 and just how juvenile Voyager could be at its worst. Such a missed opportunity. One scene in particular comes to mind that I saw recently (I'll have to go back and cite the episode) it opened with a shot of Neelix's hobbit feet "dancing" around their Raisa program (or whatever) they liked to play on the Holodeck and it was just... I wanted to go back and watch DS9. Wasn't Neelix supposed to be a "trader" familiar with different species across the Delta quadrant? He was like a saccharine version of Quark if Quark drank Root Beer.

Kate Mulgrew is a good actress and Tuvok made for a wonderful Vulcan character but beyond that, the crew were Starfleet's C- Students and the entire premise felt tedious. The Maquis just integrates with the rest of the crew and become senior officers? I don't want to bash poor Voyager but too many times it felt like it veered into silliness. Then at the final episode it's Deus ex machina and everyone gets home thanks to a magical Borg wormhole. Whatevs.

I could go on but that wouldn't be logical.

[Justin]

Voyager:

 

 

Deep Space Nine:

 

 

 

[RickR]

I'm totally with you Justin.

For me, the whole premise of Voyager is flawed right out of the gate.  You telling me they couldn't use the caretaker's station to get home and just leave a bomb-on-a-timer behind?  You telling me that kazon that don't have water somehow have ships capable of matching Voyager?  They risked this whole trip home to "save" the Ocampa...yet then flew off and left them behind anyways? 

And yes, Neelix should have been dropped off almost immediately.  What exactly did he bring to the crew?  How useful could he have been as a navigator anyways? 

I agree, Kate Mulgrew and Tim Russ were excellent.  And everyone else....meh. 

[RickR]

Meanwhile, episode 1 of DS9 totally stands up and is absolutely great.  The metaphor of baseball for time is one of my favorite things.  And so many good actors and characters here.  Sisko, Odo, Quark, Garak, any one of the Jeffrey Comb's characters, Worf, Martok, Dukat, etc, etc, etc.  Memorable and really well done. 

[RickR]

We should probably move this to a Star Trek thread and not clog up NSG's post...but you asked my opinion of Discovery...

I thought it was absolutely brilliant...up until episode 10.  At which point it turned into something really awful.  The finale was not great.  Again, all my opinion.  I'm sorry if anyone is insulted.  I hope season 2 returns to the greatness of episodes 1-9. 

[TrekMD]

I can't wait to see that space battle scene in the What We Left Behind documentary.  They have taken that scene and a number of others and upgraded them to HD resolution. 

I just finished watching the first episode of season 2 of Discovery.  Definitely going in a different direction now that the war is behind.  I liked it. 

[Justin]

Another issue that fell short for me me with Voyager was the mishandling of the Kes / Seven of Nine thing. There’s no real excuse for Kes being so underwritten and becoming a dead end. Lieutenant Broccoli was written as a deeper character. 🥦 Wasn’t Kes and the Ocampa people part of the entire premise of the show? Isn’t Kes’ people ultimately at the heart of why Voyager became stuck in the Delta Quadrant? I’m not suggesting that Kes should have stayed on, however there’s no reason her character should’ve withered into a dead end while she was on the show. Seven of Nine was a creative replacement with potential to be a deeply interesting character but I felt that was also somewhat mishandled.

The idea of a Borg drone separated from the collective joining Voyager’s crew is a brilliant one. Her story and struggle with individuality though wasn’t nearly as moving as Hugh’s. The Hugh story brought out the best of Trek, raising philosophical questions and making you think. Was it right to free him from the collective? To use him and send him home to infect the collective? Or even to risk bringing him onboard the ship in the first place? Should Guinan's warnings be heeded? Was any of this right? Does Hugh have feelings? Suddenly the audience had empathy for a Borg.

Although she was an interesting character the Seven of Nine story fell flat with me. I thought accentuating her looks to the point of making her like a Borg dominatrix cheapened the show and the Star Trek brand. They didn’t need to do that. The actress was good enough and the character interesting enough to add substantially to the show. It also felt completely unnatural to pair her up with Chakotay at the end.

Other than that though I loved Voyager.

[RickR]

Complete agreement on Kes and Seven here. 

I should also mention that Robert Picardo as "The Doctor" was also a great character.  Very well done. 

One of the main problems with the series is that I can't think of a single stand-out episode.  Just as an example, DS9 had many, with "The Visitor" being probably my favorite ST episode of them all.  TNG had "Darmok", "The Inner Light", The Borg cliffhanger, etc.  Voyager?  Well, there was that one episode with Sulu and the Excelsior.  I just don't recall what it was about, though. 

 

 

[Justin]

16 minutes ago, RickR said:

I should also mention that Robert Picardo as "The Doctor" was also a great character.  Very well done. 

Agreed! I should've mentioned him. Terrific point. The Doctor's story arc may have been the best in the series. I really like the Doctor and am glad they made a little room to have him in the TNG movies and an appearance in DS9 (Dr. Zimmerman).

I also think the Doctor would've possibly made a better "match" for Seven in the end than Chakotay, if The Doctor and Seven were both going to be in relationships at the end. Doctor and Seven both had a similar struggle of going through a Data / Pinocchio struggle of having "robotic" characteristics and learning what it means to be human.

[RickR]

Oh for sure!  Chakotay/Seven came out of left field.  Watching it now, it smacks of harassment 😁  Dude, you are her BOSS! 

One more nitpick....the ship itself just never looked "cool" IMO.  The TOS Enterprise is the sexiest space ship.  Voyager just doesn't do it for me.  The saucer looks like the heel of a men's dress shoe. 

So much potential; but ultimately, unfulfilled. 

[RickR]

Probably my favorite part of re-watching DS9 was finding small pockets of shows that I had never seen before.  It was like finding "new" Star Trek.  I savored that.  I think the show originally aired when my kids were born and were infants.  So I must have missed some episodes due to lack of sleep or other priorities. 

[nosweargamer]

I think its cool that you can take selected posts from one thread and turn them into their own thread! (Although I didn't mind the Star Trek tangents at all)

I really got into Next Gen when they started airing reruns at night after the 10pm local news (on WKBD 50 Justin). Due to simple math, most the episodes I saw where after Riker's beard, which is considered the opposite of jumping the shark for TV shows. We just started the first season. I've told myself that it's supposed to get better after season 1, but some of the early episodes aren't that bad.  My wife also told me she doesn't care for Yar, but I informed here she wouldn't be around for long. But she does seem to like Data.

DS9 didn't appeal to me when it first aired. I didn't like the idea of the show focused on a star base rather than exploration. And the theme song seemed boring and lacked energy compared to Next Gen. So I never really gave it a chance. But I've heard many praises of the show, so I look forward to giving it a real try once we finish Next Gen.

I watched the premier of Voyager on UPN with a lot of excitement, but the premier ended up boring me to the point I never gave it another shot. The story didn't do anything for me and the cast lacked the great chemistry found in TOS and Next Gen. I still have no desire to revisit it.

ST: Enterprise also never drew me in. The "hip" theme song felt so out of place and overall, the show just didn't "feel" like a real Star Trek show. I don't know why, but this is another I have no desire to see.

BTW, on a side note, I really enjoyed the animated series!

[RickR]

Oooh, I totally agree on the animated series.  Although the pacing can be slow, and the animation very rudimentary...the stories are great.  It feels like true Star Trek. 

Enterprise is another one I also didn't care for.  I thought it started out really well.  I would have loved to see the show focus on Klingons.  I think the early Earth force, being terrorized and dominated by the Klingons would have been really good.  Playing catch-up, outsmarting them, building alliances.  So many story opportunities.

There is also a lot of written material about early Star Fleet and the Romulan wars that would have been great. 

Sadly, more opportunity lost. 

 

[RickR]

And NSG -- you mentioned Riker's beard as the opposite of "jumping the shark"....DS9 is similar.  Bald/goatee Sisko is when things got really good.  Although DS9 was never as bad as season 1 of TNG. 

 

Edited January 18, 2019 by RickR

[Justin]

Wow so many things to comment on here I don't even know where to start!

2 hours ago, RickR said:

Oh for sure!  Chakotay/Seven came out of left field.  Watching it now, it smacks of harassment 😁  Dude, you are her BOSS! 

Absolutely!

Also, one of my first memories of the show was watching the premiere and being confused by the whole Neelix/Kes thing. Say what you will about the merits of their characters. Neelix seemed old enough to be Kes' dad. Neelex even looked older than Kes' father who we met in early episodes. Neelix also seemed like he knew Kes was "out of his league" and he would get really possessive and weird about it in earlier episodes where Tom Paris (a more likely suiter) showed interest in Kes. That made it even more weird.

And then, oh, by the way, Kes is two years old. Oh okay cool.

[Justin]

For the sake of time and not spending an hour typing all of this out, let me acknowledge everything you're saying and that I agree with most all of the points both of you have made above. Wow.

3 hours ago, RickR said:

One more nitpick....the ship itself just never looked "cool" IMO.  The TOS Enterprise is the sexiest space ship.  Voyager just doesn't do it for me.  The saucer looks like the heel of a men's dress shoe. 

YES. Most all of the ships that came after TNG went off the air all felt disappointing to me. (with the exception of the Defiant) They went in a new design direction that seemed to incorporate a SeaQuest squid-like stretched out shape to saucer and the rest of the ship. The Voyager, Enterprise-E, etc. all began looking less practical, real world, and just didn't feel consistent with everything that had come before.

For me, one of the biggest problems I have with the Voyager isn't just its shape, it's the premise of the show having a much smaller starship compared to the Enterprise lost across space. Sure, the Defiant is tiny, but it wasn't the entire premise of DS9 and there was a huge space station to go along with it. Going from the flagship of the Federation to Voyager felt like we were moving backward, when Star Trek was always about advancement. Same problem I had with Star Trek Enterprise. 

I really don't mean to pick apart poor Voyager. I still watched it. Always felt this way though. It had big shoes to fill.

[RickR]

You make great points.  I wonder sometimes why I don't dislike the Enterprise D as much as Voyager, even though it's the same "organic" design you described so brilliantly.  In fact, the "D" is even worse when you look at the interior sets today.  So 90's!  But it's just like you said.  The ship is bigger, more powerful, more capable than OG Enterprise.  That excuses it.

I also don't mean to pick apart Voyager.  I guess it's because we have such lofty expectations for such a great franchise.  On the bright side, I totally get how empowering it was to see a show centered around a strong woman captain.  I respect that, and I respect those who love the show for that reason. 

And that leads me back to Discovery.  Despite it's flaws, I love how diversity is so present, but also just so ordinary and acceptable.  Men, women, aliens are all there evenly mixed, and the show is so much stronger for it. 

Edited January 18, 2019 by RickR

[TrekMD]

The design of the Enterprise D grew on me over the years and the overall aesthetic for the ship was followed on several of the new designs.  Voyager may look quite different when it comes to its overall shape, but you can tell it followed the same aesthetic.  When the Enterprise E first showed up, I was like WTF?!  I've never liked the design.  I don't like the look of the warp nacelles, I don't like the underside of the saucer, and I absolutely hate how the secondary and primary hulls connect.  That looks hideous, as far as I'm concerned.  This fan-made design (USS Legacy) is far more elegant and can be seen as an evolution of the Starfleet aesthetic and would have been a much better Enterprise E design:

 

 

[RickR]

I'm on-board with what you said about the Enterprise-E.  (pun intended).  It's clear why they did it...the "D" didn't look right in the movies.  But yeah, the design wasn't great.  I've seen pizza cutters that would make a better looking ship than that  

[TrekMD]

I was listening to a Star Trek podcast recently and it seems the Enterprise D was designed as it was to better fit the TV screen.  The Enterprise E was designed long because of the widescreens in the cinema.  This was stated by the guy who designed the ship.

[RickR]

IMO the very best Star Trek movie is "First Contact", and that one features the "E".  For whatever that's worth. 

 

[TrekMD]

Oh, that was the best of the TNG movies.  Without question.  I still can't like the E-E.