Anyone have info or able to test 5200 Decathlon on 2-port units?

[CrossBow]

I pretty much only have 4 port 5200s in my collection so until very recently, I was only aware of 3 games that didn't work on 2-port versions of the console out of the box. Those being the original Pitfall!, Mountain King, and K-razy Shootout.

However, it is also commonly known that replacing the BIOS on the 2 port model with that of a 4 port, will restore those games and allow them to work on the 2-port model. There are also rom images of the games that have been modified to work on the 2 port when played using a flash cart.

Well, it seems that at last one other game has issues on the 2 port model and that is Activision's Decathlon? The latest 5200 sent in for service received a full diagnostic check, pokey calibration with my controller loopback board. No issues or faults found with the console in stock condition. However, it apparently would only show a scrambled screen of graphics just after the initial start screen with the game Decathlon. In addition to the diagnostics, it had been requested to install a UAV setup for composite and s-video output and also to replace the BIOS and put a 4port BIOS into the console. This was also done, however, I wasn't really made aware of the issues with Decathlon on this console until after I sent it back to the owner. It had been the owners hope that installing the 4port BIOS would allow Decathlon to work again.

Sadly this is not the case. Owner claims that before the BIOS swap, both copies of the game would always show an initial start screen, but when trying to start the game it would then go to a scrambled glitching graphics mess that would lock up the console. Now with the 4 port BIOS installed, they are only able to get one of their two carts to come up and get to the start screen, but like before it still goes into a scrambled mess. The other cart apparently won't even get to a start screen?

I've advised them to test it with their flash cart as they do own an Atarimax SD and state that all other games they have tested are working properly. 

I suppose it is possible for them to have 2 bad carts, but that seems unlikely to me and I'm wondering if there is an issue with the game just not working on 2 port consoles that isn't well documented? I did find another reference to this exact same issue with the game on a stock 2 port console in the AtariAge forums, dating back from 2006. However, the poster for that just ended up getting an actual 4 port unit that apparently ran the game just fine. 

So, anyone here got a 2 port a copy of Decathlon that can confirm if the game works or not? Because even with a 4port BIOS in place, it seems that game might be problematic on 2 port units.

[RickR]

I have a 2 port 5200, but no Decathlon cart.  I also do not own Pitfall, Mountain King, or K-Razy Shootout.  😞  I do have a AtariMax cart though.  I can try those games on that at some point.

 

[TrekMD]

I've never heard of issues with this particular game.  I found the manual online but it does not mention anything about this either.  @RickR I'm curious to know what you'll discover.

[CrossBow]

Well, I know there are 'fixed' versions that exist for Pitfall, Mountain King, and K-razy Shootout. But I was never aware of an issue with Decathlon. I do own the cartridge but didn't know I needed to test it with this console until I had it sent back and the owner was like..Oh..yeah too bad both carts of Decathlon I have here still don' work. They had hoped that the 4 port BIOS would solve that issue as it does for the other three previously mentioned games. But apparently not.

 

 

[CrossBow]

So an  update on this...

I was able to find a 2 port unit that in working condition in my spares pile. Popped in my backbit Pro that has a full 5200 set on it and Decathlon fired right up without any issue and played fine. I then dug out my actual Decathlon cartridge and popped it in..and..

Black screen...

Tried again, and still black screen although moving the cartridge slightly towards the back or front would cause it to show a brown...or green screen.

I cleaned the cartridge with my 99.9 IPA and my de-ox-id and not much black came off on the cotton swap so the cart fingers were pretty clean. Tried it again..same thing. I then started to experiment with this a bit and finally found that if I lifted the cart out of the slot after inserting it just a smidge, that the game would sometimes boot right up and work. But if I so much as bumped that 5200, then it would scramble the graphics and lock up. 

I think what is happening here, is similar to the 2600 activision carts. That is, the PCBs on these Activision 5200 games are likely a tad thinner than 1st party games and I don't think the PCBs extend out of the cartridge mouth as much as 1st part games do. 

My guess is that there is nothing wrong with the system or the game, other than after 40 years, everything is a bit more loose than before and it just isn't make a very good connection anymore. I still have issues with nearly all of my Activision games on my 2600 and 7800 systems, so it doesn't surprise me that the 5200 games might have similar fitment issues into the slot after all this time.

Oh...and yes this spare 2 port does have a 4-port BIOS installed so I still don't know if the game with work on stock 2 port units or requires the 4 port BIOS similar to the 2 CBS games and Pitfall!.

 

[Scott Stilphen]

Someone on highscore.com has a 2-port model that plays both Decathlon and Pitfall, so I'm guessing his system is one of the early 2-port versions that has the 4-port BIOS:

http://www.highscore.com/scores/Atari5200/ActivisionDecathlon/77613

http://www.highscore.com/scores/Atari5200/Pitfall/76799

[Scott Stilphen]

I recently tested a Decathlon cart on a 4-port, and 3 different 2-port systems, and it worked fine with all of them.

[CrossBow]

30 minutes ago, Scott Stilphen said:

I recently tested a Decathlon cart on a 4-port, and 3 different 2-port systems, and it worked fine with all of them.

Interesting... I wonder why my client's 5200 doesn't seem to like the game though? They have tried two different carts without success on their 2 port unit and it also has a 4 port BIOS installed. I wasn't aware of the issue with the game prior to sending it back so I couldn't test it for myself. Still there has to be some hardware issue that might cause this? They did have a rockwell CPU but as it was a 2 port unit, it didn't have the timing issues that would normally be found with older Rockwells in the 4 port consoles.

 

[Scott Stilphen]

If you still have your client's system, I'd start changing the major ICs one by one.  Someone on AA recently ran into an issue with Berzerk where the game was unplayable, and it turned out their system's CPU chip was at fault.

[CrossBow]

55 minutes ago, Scott Stilphen said:

If you still have your client's system, I'd start changing the major ICs one by one.  Someone on AA recently ran into an issue with Berzerk where the game was unplayable, and it turned out their system's CPU chip was at fault.

As I've said more than once already...No. I sent it back and then they reported to me that Decathlon wasn't working right and apparently that was an issue before they sent it to me but I wasn't aware that game was an issue until they had it back in hand and told me then at that time. I ran both the 1.1 and 2.3 diagnostics on it and nothing looked out of place nor did I see any issues with the games I tested it with being Blaster, Last Star Fighter, and I use both Ball Blazer and Rescue on Fractalus as burn in test games since they have built in demos I can start up and leave the console going for hours until I finally turn them off.

[Scott Stilphen]

Then your client needs to send the system back to you since there's still an issue with it in regards to Decathlon, and it's clear Atari's diagnostic carts can't detect it.  Atari's VCS diagnostic cart doesn't do any in-depth testing of the CPU, and "alex_79" wrote a simple test program for testing it, which he posted in this thread:

https://forums.atariage.com/topic/349009-atari-2600-berserk-issue/#comment-5220321

Perhaps he can write a similar one for the 5200.

[CrossBow]

1 hour ago, Scott Stilphen said:

Then your client needs to send the system back to you since there's still an issue with it in regards to Decathlon, and it's clear Atari's diagnostic carts can't detect it.  Atari's VCS diagnostic cart doesn't do any in-depth testing of the CPU, and "alex_79" wrote a simple test program for testing it, which he posted in this thread:

https://forums.atariage.com/topic/349009-atari-2600-berserk-issue/#comment-5220321

Perhaps he can write a similar one for the 5200.

But I'm not so sure there is an issue. As I stated with my own testing. Even my actual cart doesn't seem to want to work most of the time in my actual 5200. But if I have my tongue and cart at the right angle, then I can get my cartridge to boot up and play. Also, they did confirm that the game loads up find on their Atarimax. So I do think the issue here is just poor contact with the PCB in regards to Activision games in general. 

And had I known that they had an issue with the game I would have tested it before sending it back. They stated it is the only game they have issues getting to work and since they can play it on flash cart, they aren't bothered by it at this point.

You are making it sound like I didn't do enough testing with it but that couldn't be further from the truth. And there isn't anyway for me to test every single game that is out there on everyone of these consoles that comes in. For one I don't own ever game and two, the time needed to adequately test every game like this isn't something that 1 person can do when I usually have a few systems here at the same time to receive services. If the diagnostics say everything is good, and the games I play on it via flash cart work then I don't have any reason to believe there is anything seriously wrong with the console. I also don't consider a single game that doesn't seem to work as dictating there is a failure with the console. There has to be other games that would fail in similar fashion if there was a console fault and I and my client didn't encounter any issues other than my client having issues with his Decathlon cartridges. 

If they wanted to send it back for me to try replacing the CPU I can do that and it might get that one game working again sure. But they don't seem interested in doing that at this time and have stated they are very happy with the results Decathlon withstanding.

 

[Scott Stilphen]

You certainly don't have to test every cartridge when testing a system.  I never said you did.  In your case, the customer should have absolutely told you up front the issue they were having, and why they thought having a 4-port OS would have fixed it.  Had they done that, you could have told them having a 4-port OS wouldn't fix their issue with it, because as far as compatibility issues with original carts, the 3 you mentioned are the only 3:

https://www.ataricompendium.com/game_library/easter_eggs/5200/52supersystem.html

The customer needs a new catridge connector IMO.  They also need to clean the edge connector in their Decathlon cart.  Yes, it's a known issue with Activision carts that they used a pcb that's slightly thinner than Atari's own.  This wasn't an issue 40 years ago, but over time those cartridge connectors are now worn and don't connect as tightly.  You're seeing that with your own systems.  The best 'upgrade' people can do with their systems at this point is to replace that connector.

As for the Rockwell CPU issue, any 2-port models with that specific CPU should already have had the R-C network added to it from the factory, since the Atari Tech Tip about it (#7) is dated 1-20-83, and the 5200 was released in fall 1982.

"If the diagnostics say everything is good, and the games I play on it via flash cart work then I don't have any reason to believe there is anything seriously wrong with the console. I also don't consider a single game that doesn't seem to work as dictating there is a failure with the console. There has to be other games that would fail in similar fashion if there was a console fault and I and my client didn't encounter any issues other than my client having issues with his Decathlon cartridges"

Flash carts like AtariMax and Backbit Pro can help work-around some compatibility issues, but they also create their own issues sometimes.

https://atariage.com/forums/topic/314153-issues-with-pac-man-on-atarimax-multicart-why/
https://atariage.com/forums/topic/290185-can-anyone-help-me-fix-grapthic-issue-on-the-atarimax-sd5200/

Some of Steve Tucker's other products also have their own issues.  His Atari 800 APE interface has an issue with running several programs (for example, there's no paddle sould in Super Breakout when using it).  Also, his Maxflash programer tries to pull an amp through your USB ports and that cost a friend of mine his laptop power supply.

And I just mentioned a recent issue that was found with VCS Berzerk that illustrates why you can't always rely on diagnostic carts, and how a faulty IC can apparently affect a particular game (in that case, a common 4K game).  So, I would advice not assuming your diagnostic cart will detect everything.  Atari's own arcade games back then have a built-in test program for troubleshooting problems, and guess what?  They're horribly inadequate, and sometimes will indicate a chip to be faulty when it isn't. 

[CrossBow]

Oh I get that, but I can only work off what I have in the service manuals and the tools that I know to use. That was why I purchased my chiptester from Backbit.io over a year ago was so I could better verify some of the more commonly used ICs and customs used in many consoles and computers back in they day.

But even the chip tester isn't perfect as it reports a Rockwell 6502 as passing that clearly was showing issues on a 7800 when installed. 

So at the end of the day, I should have been made aware of the issue so I could have tested it more specifically. But it was already back in the hands of the owner and they feel satisfied with the work that was done and just plan to play it using their flash cart going foward.

You mention cartridge ports, do you know a source for those exact ones? I can tell you that I do clean out the cart ports on each console using a size to fit cut credit card, with a section of t-shirt wrapped around it and then saturated first with my de-ox-id cleaner and then folowed up with 99.9 IPA until no more black or grey is being shown on the t-shirt section.

 

[Scott Stilphen]

Brad at Best Electronics sells them for $5.95 each, but you're limited to 2.

I asked Luke at Console5 if they plan on selling them, and he replied: "Ordering and testing samples of lots of cartridge connectors for various systems right now. If everything passes checks we'll have 5200 connectors available in 1-2 weeks."