ptw-ace

Just a thought about the extra expansion port...
 
could it be a spot for some kind of memory cartridge to save games and such?

Crazy.  Within a few days I've managed to locate a useful tool for ST owners.
SYSINFO
SysInfo is a small program that gives ST owners detailed information about their system.  Machine type, processor speed, amount of RAM, and more are printed out on your monitor/TV.  Kind of handy.  Program is a compressed PRG file, not a disk image.  
I am currently going through some more stuff to see what is helpful and learning how to use them.  I'll post more as I find more.  In the meantime, this is my resource:
Atari ST Essential Software 

Atari's 'Graphics Gems' collection of source codes from the magazine/articles of that time. One of which they actually adapted to work with the Jaguar: 
Snippets from these descriptions:
Graphics gems 


Graphics Gems II


GEMS.ZIP
GEMSII.ZIP
GEMSIII.ZIP
GEMSIV.ZIP

There was an exciting post today over on the Atari Jaguar Facebook page. Apparently, some folks are working on a reproduction of the Jaguar ProController. If you're a Jaguar fan, you know that the ProController vastly improves on the original Jaguar controller in terms of feel and function. Many of the late releases (1995 and beyond) have ProController support that enhances gameplay. Unfortunately, these controllers regularly exceed $200 on eBay, making them out of reach for many gamers. The reproductions will reportedly cost $50-60. They are asking for an interest check now but I'm hopeful that this comes to fruition. Maybe Clint can confirm and provide more information?
 

Bump: FYI - these are now available to order. I've been following development over at AA and the end product looks great. The minimum is 2 pads at $120. Considering the originals go for $200 ea., that's a steal. The order website is https://hoskinson-industries.myshopify.com

I think it's just best to start a thread, don't see why not, but I'm not seeing the Jaguar forums over here very active at all sadly. Everyone else seems to be in either one of the Facebook groups, AA or just keeps their distance.
 
Most of their included demos have a lot of great info and the Rb+ tutorial is included but I feel like that Doger demo may be a little bit much for most and easier or more simple tutorials need to be made that help someone from scratch instead of a ton of graphic objects and lines of code but I think the community is definitely there to help anyone who asks, same goes for here.
 
I'm just about 2 years into Rb+ and have finally started making some really good progress especially after many feedback related issues with some minor buggies that would cause a hiccup here or there. For what it is, it's rather amazing. I could have never done what I'm doing otherwise so I'm truly grateful it exists.
 
I've got a mini game to release soon and a sort of fun tech demo to show as well that I'm almost done with (hopefully end of weekend if not sooner). With that said I think it would be fun to do some quick 5-minute video tutorials on how to program easy stuff for the Jaguar using Rb+, maybe time will permit such a thing after the holidays. =)

Here's some info on Raptor and RaptorBASIC+ but, I feel more importantly personally, some info from myself and what I've done with rB+ as a beginner programmer.   CJ's Raptor is a high performance RISC-based API designed to leverage the performance of the Jaguar's custom RISC chips and Object Processor, in an easy and flexible manner, allowing the software developer to spend more time following their vision instead of wrestling with the hardware. It combines with Matmook's RMotion, LinkoVitch's U235 Sound Engine, Zerosquare's Sound Engine as well as other goodies to allow people a quick and easy way in the door to Jaguar assembly programming (an example here would be Der Luchs - who is on about his 4th or 5th Jaguar game at this point having only ever programmed in BASIC prior to tackling Raptor).   RaptorBASIC is a (now obsoleted) interpreted BASIC that was the first attempt to offer Raptor functionality to anyone and everyone. From absolute noobies, to people who dabbled a little in their youth up to anyone who fancied putting their usual programming language and skills to one side if just to allow them to easily dip a toe into the world of Jaguar programming.   RaptorBASIC+ is GGN's next level of BASIC programming on Jaguar. It's actually a little bit more than that in a few regards, but that's not something he shouts about too loudly. It's essentially a C-ified Raptor, but with a BASIC-to-C preprocess via a variant of Kevin Diggins' BCX BASIC-to-C Translator. The user sets up Raptor lists by inputting a few values (these closely mirror Jaguar Object Processor lists), then it's just a matter of typing in a few lines of humanly-readable code and you make things happen on screen or in Virtual Jaguar at the hit of a single key. As it's C-based, it's also fairly trivial for the Jaguar C-programmer to gain access to Raptor functionality, but as I mentioned, it's not something GGN talks too loudly about as his intentions were to allow as wide an audience as possible to become creative with their Jaguars (and there had been a number of failed attempts to produce a workable Jaguar BASIC environment), not simply to give C coders a Raptor wrapper. If someone really wishes to program polygonal game software in C and also take advantage of the benefits and features of Raptor, the rB+ package allows them to do exactly that - the "BASIC" part of rB+ is nothing more than a hand-hold for those who don't like the idea of C or find comfort in something they consider similar to what they're used to... you can even create your program in BASIC, convert it to C and then work on the C code directly from that point if that takes your fancy. But really, that's all missing the point... Raptor/rB+ are all about Object Processor porn. GPU running in local scratch memory, handling the Jaguar's kick-arse sprite power from the perspective of keeping it slightly more general purpose, reusable and therefore quicker to create.   Who got time for this stuff anyway? :0)   Almost a year on and there have been constant updates for fixes, added functionality and streamlining of the whole process of creation. Keep an eye on the official rB+ forums at AtariAge for something around the 1 year anniversary if you wish to get up to speed on the story so far.   Over the year I've dabbled myself on and off (mostly off, grafting hard at work and sitting doing thinky things are not really all that compatible for me :/ ). I've never considered myself a programmer, I've always been more interested and suited to the art and design side of things. But even I can give it a go and make stuff happen, that proves anyone else can do the same if they only take that first difficult step and force themselves out of their safe end-user bubble :0) At first I shied away from the Object List stuff and attempted to go about things in a really standard old and familiar way of using BASIC - by PRINTing and PLOTing and other trivial and unexciting things I used to do in my youth sat at my Spectrum keyboard. It was only when I moved on to play around with what is effectively a super-powered sprite engine in Raptor's object manipulation functionality, that it really became fun.   So far I've created a simple Frogger game called Doger. It's 98% complete and was only made to be a tutorial project for other beginners such as myself. But since showing it to people and having a little positive feedback, I've decided I should polish it a little and put it out as a more complete release. There's my microFLY game which is a kind of endless runner (flier) sitting somewhere between SuperFly and FlappyBird by most accounts - this too is all but complete. It's got a kind of minimal pseudo 3D effect on the blocking objects and the usual and IIRC over a dozen layers of parallax scrolling. I worked a couple of days on a checkerboard floor/ceiling routine that used RMW shading to some effect for a cheap and easy first-person tank kind of game effect, but haven't gone back to that. Another game engine I worked on for a few days was based on tower climbing and giving a 3D perspective via the magic of the Jaguar's Object Processor scaling and a little Raptor trickery. This is a bit more involved but is still in search of a suitable game concept to take it forward:     The most recent game I worked on is a variant of Super/Hexagon by Terry Cavanagh that I decided to make after seeing a fun Game&Watch demake version of the game. GGN is thankfully doing the tricky geometry generation stuff that is out of my depth :0) I tweeted a video of a very early version to Mr. Cavanagh just because I thought he might like to see it. I was surprised when  he then retweeted it and hope that hints that he wouldn't be too upset if I released something along those lines for the Jaguar :0) I spent a few more days taking the concept further since that video and feel really quite positive about the possibilities of it, it's a game I will return to with 100% effort once the time is right. TBH I haven't really announced it yet as it's too early, but here's the original few days old version with some random scaling and stuff "just because" (the one I tweeted) and a slightly later WIP version where we were checking out GGN's star level, more detailed facet shading, scaling and overlaying the game objects and some random scaled RMW logo flying just for extra load (both captured at 60fps from Jaguar hardware):     I've not only done a little work on games (games that, to some people's strict internal taxonomic disposition, might very well appear to be sub-8-bit junk, yet to me they are everything I enjoy and value when it comes to a box with an Atari badge on the front - just plain old fun & fuji. C'est la vie), I've made a little particle playaround thing, a menu for a Jeff Minter CD (yet to be released), and I've also dabbled in creating a few demo-style effects, purely because I find it fun (it's practically all I did for the short time I played around with blitzmax on the PC). I released a few of these together as a demo called "Cloudy With A Chance Of Metaballs" that in some ways is very rough, in others isn't so bad (thinking maybe the fx/audio syncing), in others is a bit of a laugh (doge!) and also manages to demonstrate that rB+ and the Jaguar have a lot yet to be discovered in terms of what might be possible (here I'm thinking the RMW/colour mode abuse lolvalamp screen).   Right now I'm back to rB+ing as of 2 days ago and working on a small invitro for a 2016 party that I hope to release before xmas. Here's some screenies of some of the above:     Probably a good point to make - everything above is 100% 60fps locked on Jaguar hardware. That's Atari stuff as it should be for me - as it always was back in our younger days with those little Ataris. rB+ makes it easy!   So as for rB+ going forward, it seems there's no stopping this train... there are plans for additions to rB+ that will put more of the Jaguar's best and most game-centric possibilities in the hands of beginner programmers (some of the stuff I've seen recently from other rB+ programmers is going to open a few eyes, that's for sure).   So, all that is left to say is... why did you read all this and, more importantly, since you have - why are you still sat there? PUSH THE BUTTON and go make a game! It's way more fun than playing them (especially given the Jaguar's library ;0)   Apologies if this was all just tl;dr, it's just that what CJ did when he created Raptor and even more so, what GGN then did with rB+, actually reignited a fastly-fading flame I had for the Jaguar - BASICally (sorry!), if it wasn't for rB+ I'd be long gone and the Jaguar a distant memory for me... but now I have the chance to be productive with one of my Ataris, make every single 0 and 1 of a project of my own creation if I so wish, and that's pretty powerful stuff for someone like me... so I like to give those guys props and give their efforts a fair chance... when I see the kinds of stuff written in previous posts, it does everyone involved a massive disservice.... and more importantly, mirrors the kind of nonsense that has likely put people off becoming involved with Jaguar programming before they even got to give it a second thought.   Be positive and positive things will happen. Attempt to make them happen yourself and... well you might just find out how easy it can be! At the very worst, at least those you won't just be one of those guys who says THIS IS HOW IT SHOULD BE without knowing the first thing about what that might actually involve, when you have a little better context within which to base future comments regarding games creation :0)  
   
An interesting position to be sure. But unfortunately, few of us ever manage to run before we can crawl... there's an A and a B before we get to C (unless you're a jagpad, in which case there's a C and a B before you get to A...). What I'm saying is such things are easy to type and promises easy to make, but actions a little trickier to implement and therefore promises more difficult to keep.
 
Luckily, rB+ is very easy for beginners. It takes very little time at all. Anyone with a natural talent or gift would no doubt be able to move on up within short order, bypass the whole BASIC facade and jump into C/assembler to make those kinds of claims a reality. 
 
Nothing stopping you but yourself. Do it!
 
 
 
If you wish to take an existing project of yours and work through it as a porting project from which to learn the ropes of rB+, the offer is always there.
 
The more the merrier!
 

I will be receiving one of the first completed production samples sometime this week / week-end. Looks like they have turned out great and will share pictures here once it arrives. Really cool that it's finally nearing completion.

This would probably created instant compatibility problems.

Man I can't wait to see this project come to fruition... Very nice.
 
Every thought about replacing the Motorola 68000 with a 68020 or higher with internal FPU?

Yeah, the Orbit controller chip is a proprietary chip but... I got a hold of someone who may have that as well. There's a lot of stuff to do and go through.
 
 

On the case design: Ira Valinksy was the designer of the JagDuo and most of the later Atari products. Sadly he passed away at an early age quite a long time ago. Some sort of page in dedication and memory is definitely in order.
 
You're correct about the expansion port - it is similar to that of the Jaguar 2 design as well. No idea what they could have had in mind for use regarding the expansion port really.
 
While it's doubtful anything will come of the efforts, I am in contact with the original board manufacturer who produced this board to see if any possible archives of the original PCB files exist. There are other options as well but obviously having the original files would be the easiest. The biggest chip challenge would be the Orbit CD controller chip that is found in the Jaguar CD units. Very little information on those seem to be available.
 
While also unlikely, it could also be possible to have new Tom and Jerry chips made thanks to wafer pooling in the modern age bringing costs substantially down and the available netlists. In a best price scenario, they would still probably be roughly $60 a chip due to such a low or limited qty run.

In case you guys haven't already seen it elsewhere, we're close to having some PCBs made. Hopefully by the end of the month we will have a few in hand and start building one to see how possible recreating it will be overall.
 

A few weeks ago Glenn was able to confirm that the JagDuo did indeed have a CD sub assembly daughterboard as well, which initially was discouraging because it was already difficult enough to find the PCB files for the JagDuo itself. Thankfully with a scan of the board he provided me, I was able to find them and so now both boards will undergo updates for modernized PCB production - which are still being worked on as time is available.
 
The files are interesting because they were completed in early February of 1995, so almost exactly 23 years ago! However, the boards weren't actually made until July of 1995, as noted on the CD board here. Makes sense seeing as how the Jaguar CD wasn't even completely finalized until about that time as well. It's interesting to also note that Atari did not do the design themselves and outsourced the project, which further explains why no one at Atari seems to have ever seen one in person or half of them not even knowing of its existence.
 
Remaining piece to the entire puzzle seems to be the BOM or Build of Material list at this point. While it's possible with some super talented and clever people to kind of work around and do it, it would seemingly be very difficult or at least, far easier to do if we had the BOM.
 
I've got some more work cut out for me and will spend the next month or so trying to locate these last few pieces in hopes that we can finally assemble one of the coolest puzzles Atari left unfinished. When you place the JagDuo and Sony PlayStation side by side, you can't help realize just how beautiful the console could have been.

Thanks go to John Hardie for scanning this in. Confirmation that work was done on this and not just a case mockup!
 

Hi my name Philip, but you can call me ptw-ace or just ace... That was my user name in previous Atari Jaguar forums. I've been thinking about selling my Jag. I've had since 2004 and have had a lot of great moments with the system and the Jag community. If I was mention everything, I'd have to write a four page topic on my experiences with the Jag and the community once existed. What I can tell is that for years people wanted to see new games released for the Atari Jaguar system and put tremendous effort in to doing so from creating the infamous "Skunkboard" where you can plug it in the cartridge and program the Jag via USB... But before then there was the "BJL or Behind Jaggy Lines" where you physically had to remove the Jags bios chip and replace with the BJL software and then program it from a PC or an Atari ST or an Atari Falcon if you had one. Songbird productions, which is still selling games for the Jag has a game called "Protector"... This game has a limited version of BJL on it when you press the zero button; the game was released I guess around 03 or 04, it could've been earlier, but it was at the time when you could program the Jag via printer "printer port to Jag controller port".
 
I myself, wasn't really a programmer and to this day, still don't know how to program like I should, but boy it's been quite the learning experience where if you stick around a thing long enough, you'll gain more understanding about a system then you had when you first started. Well... The Jaguar is infact a 64bit system because of the Blitter that was 64bit with a either 64bit bus or could produce 64bit output despite the other processors being 32bit (I always wind up going back to the tech manual for that info so don't take what I said too litterally, if you see anything wrong just correct me). Whatever the case the potential for the Jag to really be the next gen system of it's time was all there, but the Jag system design was riddled with bugs due to a poor system design. It was suppose to be a big shot 3D system, but the programmers, although could do 3D on it, would constantly run into problems and didn't really pin point the core causes of where the problem came from. The biggest problem that stuck out was the "Motorola 68000 processor" that would hog the systems BUS whenever it was in use... Latter the expert homebrew Jag programmers would conclude that the best way to take advantage of the system was to let the Motorola set the tone for the other chips to work and then cut it off, but being that the Atari community comprises of Atari ST enthusiast; a computer that also uses the 68000, would often beg to differ. Me personally thought it would be a waist of a chip to not use it for something, but I also believe that turning the chip off and using the other processors is probably right on point. For me I wanted to do a game for the Jag for sometime now, but real life demands required more of my attention then the Jag, which was the case for most people who wanted to make homebrew games for the Jaguar. My thing was the 2.5D games like "DOOM and Phase Zero"; no so much the game, but the pesudo 3D engine behind the game... The reason I believe most of Atari 3D games lagged so badly was because everyone was using the Motorola 68000 to handle game logic not truley realizing that the chip was actually slowing the system down; that's why games like Checkard Flag, Cybermorph, Missle Command 3D, and even some 2.5D games like AVP and "White Men Can't Jump" ran very slow because the main plan was understood to use the 68000 for game logic and let the other chips do all the 3D work; that's the way Atari sold it. The M68K was put in there to give people a quote "Warm and fuzzy feeling"... It did anything but that in the end, however it didn't stop the ambitious from trying after Hasbro released the system to the public in the mid 90s.
 
They say when one doesn't learn from history, one is doomed to repeat it so it's always a good idea to tell your story even though I might be comming off a little strong in a new forum like this. It's always good to hear another side of the spectrum and as you can probably guess from the rambling, I could go on and on about the many adventures in "Jaggy Land" as in BJL, behind JAGGY lines, get it... I've been thinking about selling my Jag collection and have already sold a few games on ebay; I even have the infamous first and second generation "Skunkboards". For what it's worth I've enjoyed the Jag for many years now and I've learned more about computers fooling with the Jaguar reading the tech manuals other tools Atari release to the programmers of the day. The Jag system (The Big Cat) can be quite a system to tame if you'r just starting out and does require prior programming knowledge. They say it's best to just start simply by learning C programming language, but you WILL have to know how to program in Assembler because the C tools Atari released to the programmers is in efficient unless you're using the 68000. The Jag GPU doesn't have access to the main RAM unless you create a work around, which does exist out there, but for C programming, you'll only have internal cache memory in the GPU and the DSP (sound chip) due to an unresolved hardware issue. I know the message I'm giving is a little generalized, but they are very much key to having some level of success programming that system; the Jaguar was really rushed out the door too soon in an effort to capture the market of it's time, but if Atari had put more time and effort in to the system and released it around 95 when the PS1 was released, it would've out performed Playstation and Saturn becuase of the 64bit blitter the Jag contained and the other processors as well. The game "Tempest 2000" is a wonderful example what the blitter was capable of using the GPU for the 3D and the Blitter for all of the special effects.
 
If the 68000 chip had it's internal memory like the other processors did, they would have given the programmers some head way to make up for any lost effeciency because the Atari Jaguar data bus is a bottleneck with all five processors sitting on top of it with the GPU having no access to main RAM without a work around. Some suggest the 68020 would've been a bit more expensive, but more appropriate because it having it's on intern memory in it.  But as you can see, I can go on and on, but it just shows the nature of the Atari Jaguar internal workings and I still didn't cover it all, but I hope this little information will be helpful in some way to someone.

Hi my name Philip, but you can call me ptw-ace or just ace... That was my user name in previous Atari Jaguar forums. I've been thinking about selling my Jag. I've had since 2004 and have had a lot of great moments with the system and the Jag community. If I was mention everything, I'd have to write a four page topic on my experiences with the Jag and the community once existed. What I can tell is that for years people wanted to see new games released for the Atari Jaguar system and put tremendous effort in to doing so from creating the infamous "Skunkboard" where you can plug it in the cartridge and program the Jag via USB... But before then there was the "BJL or Behind Jaggy Lines" where you physically had to remove the Jags bios chip and replace with the BJL software and then program it from a PC or an Atari ST or an Atari Falcon if you had one. Songbird productions, which is still selling games for the Jag has a game called "Protector"... This game has a limited version of BJL on it when you press the zero button; the game was released I guess around 03 or 04, it could've been earlier, but it was at the time when you could program the Jag via printer "printer port to Jag controller port".
 
I myself, wasn't really a programmer and to this day, still don't know how to program like I should, but boy it's been quite the learning experience where if you stick around a thing long enough, you'll gain more understanding about a system then you had when you first started. Well... The Jaguar is infact a 64bit system because of the Blitter that was 64bit with a either 64bit bus or could produce 64bit output despite the other processors being 32bit (I always wind up going back to the tech manual for that info so don't take what I said too litterally, if you see anything wrong just correct me). Whatever the case the potential for the Jag to really be the next gen system of it's time was all there, but the Jag system design was riddled with bugs due to a poor system design. It was suppose to be a big shot 3D system, but the programmers, although could do 3D on it, would constantly run into problems and didn't really pin point the core causes of where the problem came from. The biggest problem that stuck out was the "Motorola 68000 processor" that would hog the systems BUS whenever it was in use... Latter the expert homebrew Jag programmers would conclude that the best way to take advantage of the system was to let the Motorola set the tone for the other chips to work and then cut it off, but being that the Atari community comprises of Atari ST enthusiast; a computer that also uses the 68000, would often beg to differ. Me personally thought it would be a waist of a chip to not use it for something, but I also believe that turning the chip off and using the other processors is probably right on point. For me I wanted to do a game for the Jag for sometime now, but real life demands required more of my attention then the Jag, which was the case for most people who wanted to make homebrew games for the Jaguar. My thing was the 2.5D games like "DOOM and Phase Zero"; no so much the game, but the pesudo 3D engine behind the game... The reason I believe most of Atari 3D games lagged so badly was because everyone was using the Motorola 68000 to handle game logic not truley realizing that the chip was actually slowing the system down; that's why games like Checkard Flag, Cybermorph, Missle Command 3D, and even some 2.5D games like AVP and "White Men Can't Jump" ran very slow because the main plan was understood to use the 68000 for game logic and let the other chips do all the 3D work; that's the way Atari sold it. The M68K was put in there to give people a quote "Warm and fuzzy feeling"... It did anything but that in the end, however it didn't stop the ambitious from trying after Hasbro released the system to the public in the mid 90s.
 
They say when one doesn't learn from history, one is doomed to repeat it so it's always a good idea to tell your story even though I might be comming off a little strong in a new forum like this. It's always good to hear another side of the spectrum and as you can probably guess from the rambling, I could go on and on about the many adventures in "Jaggy Land" as in BJL, behind JAGGY lines, get it... I've been thinking about selling my Jag collection and have already sold a few games on ebay; I even have the infamous first and second generation "Skunkboards". For what it's worth I've enjoyed the Jag for many years now and I've learned more about computers fooling with the Jaguar reading the tech manuals other tools Atari release to the programmers of the day. The Jag system (The Big Cat) can be quite a system to tame if you'r just starting out and does require prior programming knowledge. They say it's best to just start simply by learning C programming language, but you WILL have to know how to program in Assembler because the C tools Atari released to the programmers is in efficient unless you're using the 68000. The Jag GPU doesn't have access to the main RAM unless you create a work around, which does exist out there, but for C programming, you'll only have internal cache memory in the GPU and the DSP (sound chip) due to an unresolved hardware issue. I know the message I'm giving is a little generalized, but they are very much key to having some level of success programming that system; the Jaguar was really rushed out the door too soon in an effort to capture the market of it's time, but if Atari had put more time and effort in to the system and released it around 95 when the PS1 was released, it would've out performed Playstation and Saturn becuase of the 64bit blitter the Jag contained and the other processors as well. The game "Tempest 2000" is a wonderful example what the blitter was capable of using the GPU for the 3D and the Blitter for all of the special effects.
 
If the 68000 chip had it's internal memory like the other processors did, they would have given the programmers some head way to make up for any lost effeciency because the Atari Jaguar data bus is a bottleneck with all five processors sitting on top of it with the GPU having no access to main RAM without a work around. Some suggest the 68020 would've been a bit more expensive, but more appropriate because it having it's on intern memory in it.  But as you can see, I can go on and on, but it just shows the nature of the Atari Jaguar internal workings and I still didn't cover it all, but I hope this little information will be helpful in some way to someone.

Hi my name Philip, but you can call me ptw-ace or just ace... That was my user name in previous Atari Jaguar forums. I've been thinking about selling my Jag. I've had since 2004 and have had a lot of great moments with the system and the Jag community. If I was mention everything, I'd have to write a four page topic on my experiences with the Jag and the community once existed. What I can tell is that for years people wanted to see new games released for the Atari Jaguar system and put tremendous effort in to doing so from creating the infamous "Skunkboard" where you can plug it in the cartridge and program the Jag via USB... But before then there was the "BJL or Behind Jaggy Lines" where you physically had to remove the Jags bios chip and replace with the BJL software and then program it from a PC or an Atari ST or an Atari Falcon if you had one. Songbird productions, which is still selling games for the Jag has a game called "Protector"... This game has a limited version of BJL on it when you press the zero button; the game was released I guess around 03 or 04, it could've been earlier, but it was at the time when you could program the Jag via printer "printer port to Jag controller port".
 
I myself, wasn't really a programmer and to this day, still don't know how to program like I should, but boy it's been quite the learning experience where if you stick around a thing long enough, you'll gain more understanding about a system then you had when you first started. Well... The Jaguar is infact a 64bit system because of the Blitter that was 64bit with a either 64bit bus or could produce 64bit output despite the other processors being 32bit (I always wind up going back to the tech manual for that info so don't take what I said too litterally, if you see anything wrong just correct me). Whatever the case the potential for the Jag to really be the next gen system of it's time was all there, but the Jag system design was riddled with bugs due to a poor system design. It was suppose to be a big shot 3D system, but the programmers, although could do 3D on it, would constantly run into problems and didn't really pin point the core causes of where the problem came from. The biggest problem that stuck out was the "Motorola 68000 processor" that would hog the systems BUS whenever it was in use... Latter the expert homebrew Jag programmers would conclude that the best way to take advantage of the system was to let the Motorola set the tone for the other chips to work and then cut it off, but being that the Atari community comprises of Atari ST enthusiast; a computer that also uses the 68000, would often beg to differ. Me personally thought it would be a waist of a chip to not use it for something, but I also believe that turning the chip off and using the other processors is probably right on point. For me I wanted to do a game for the Jag for sometime now, but real life demands required more of my attention then the Jag, which was the case for most people who wanted to make homebrew games for the Jaguar. My thing was the 2.5D games like "DOOM and Phase Zero"; no so much the game, but the pesudo 3D engine behind the game... The reason I believe most of Atari 3D games lagged so badly was because everyone was using the Motorola 68000 to handle game logic not truley realizing that the chip was actually slowing the system down; that's why games like Checkard Flag, Cybermorph, Missle Command 3D, and even some 2.5D games like AVP and "White Men Can't Jump" ran very slow because the main plan was understood to use the 68000 for game logic and let the other chips do all the 3D work; that's the way Atari sold it. The M68K was put in there to give people a quote "Warm and fuzzy feeling"... It did anything but that in the end, however it didn't stop the ambitious from trying after Hasbro released the system to the public in the mid 90s.
 
They say when one doesn't learn from history, one is doomed to repeat it so it's always a good idea to tell your story even though I might be comming off a little strong in a new forum like this. It's always good to hear another side of the spectrum and as you can probably guess from the rambling, I could go on and on about the many adventures in "Jaggy Land" as in BJL, behind JAGGY lines, get it... I've been thinking about selling my Jag collection and have already sold a few games on ebay; I even have the infamous first and second generation "Skunkboards". For what it's worth I've enjoyed the Jag for many years now and I've learned more about computers fooling with the Jaguar reading the tech manuals other tools Atari release to the programmers of the day. The Jag system (The Big Cat) can be quite a system to tame if you'r just starting out and does require prior programming knowledge. They say it's best to just start simply by learning C programming language, but you WILL have to know how to program in Assembler because the C tools Atari released to the programmers is in efficient unless you're using the 68000. The Jag GPU doesn't have access to the main RAM unless you create a work around, which does exist out there, but for C programming, you'll only have internal cache memory in the GPU and the DSP (sound chip) due to an unresolved hardware issue. I know the message I'm giving is a little generalized, but they are very much key to having some level of success programming that system; the Jaguar was really rushed out the door too soon in an effort to capture the market of it's time, but if Atari had put more time and effort in to the system and released it around 95 when the PS1 was released, it would've out performed Playstation and Saturn becuase of the 64bit blitter the Jag contained and the other processors as well. The game "Tempest 2000" is a wonderful example what the blitter was capable of using the GPU for the 3D and the Blitter for all of the special effects.
 
If the 68000 chip had it's internal memory like the other processors did, they would have given the programmers some head way to make up for any lost effeciency because the Atari Jaguar data bus is a bottleneck with all five processors sitting on top of it with the GPU having no access to main RAM without a work around. Some suggest the 68020 would've been a bit more expensive, but more appropriate because it having it's on intern memory in it.  But as you can see, I can go on and on, but it just shows the nature of the Atari Jaguar internal workings and I still didn't cover it all, but I hope this little information will be helpful in some way to someone.

Hi new to the forum! The jaguar is my favorite console and the best part is that i can have new games for it still to this day thanks to the new developers, just got philia and waiting for a new skunkboard????

Hi my name Philip, but you can call me ptw-ace or just ace... That was my user name in previous Atari Jaguar forums. I've been thinking about selling my Jag. I've had since 2004 and have had a lot of great moments with the system and the Jag community. If I was mention everything, I'd have to write a four page topic on my experiences with the Jag and the community once existed. What I can tell is that for years people wanted to see new games released for the Atari Jaguar system and put tremendous effort in to doing so from creating the infamous "Skunkboard" where you can plug it in the cartridge and program the Jag via USB... But before then there was the "BJL or Behind Jaggy Lines" where you physically had to remove the Jags bios chip and replace with the BJL software and then program it from a PC or an Atari ST or an Atari Falcon if you had one. Songbird productions, which is still selling games for the Jag has a game called "Protector"... This game has a limited version of BJL on it when you press the zero button; the game was released I guess around 03 or 04, it could've been earlier, but it was at the time when you could program the Jag via printer "printer port to Jag controller port".
 
I myself, wasn't really a programmer and to this day, still don't know how to program like I should, but boy it's been quite the learning experience where if you stick around a thing long enough, you'll gain more understanding about a system then you had when you first started. Well... The Jaguar is infact a 64bit system because of the Blitter that was 64bit with a either 64bit bus or could produce 64bit output despite the other processors being 32bit (I always wind up going back to the tech manual for that info so don't take what I said too litterally, if you see anything wrong just correct me). Whatever the case the potential for the Jag to really be the next gen system of it's time was all there, but the Jag system design was riddled with bugs due to a poor system design. It was suppose to be a big shot 3D system, but the programmers, although could do 3D on it, would constantly run into problems and didn't really pin point the core causes of where the problem came from. The biggest problem that stuck out was the "Motorola 68000 processor" that would hog the systems BUS whenever it was in use... Latter the expert homebrew Jag programmers would conclude that the best way to take advantage of the system was to let the Motorola set the tone for the other chips to work and then cut it off, but being that the Atari community comprises of Atari ST enthusiast; a computer that also uses the 68000, would often beg to differ. Me personally thought it would be a waist of a chip to not use it for something, but I also believe that turning the chip off and using the other processors is probably right on point. For me I wanted to do a game for the Jag for sometime now, but real life demands required more of my attention then the Jag, which was the case for most people who wanted to make homebrew games for the Jaguar. My thing was the 2.5D games like "DOOM and Phase Zero"; no so much the game, but the pesudo 3D engine behind the game... The reason I believe most of Atari 3D games lagged so badly was because everyone was using the Motorola 68000 to handle game logic not truley realizing that the chip was actually slowing the system down; that's why games like Checkard Flag, Cybermorph, Missle Command 3D, and even some 2.5D games like AVP and "White Men Can't Jump" ran very slow because the main plan was understood to use the 68000 for game logic and let the other chips do all the 3D work; that's the way Atari sold it. The M68K was put in there to give people a quote "Warm and fuzzy feeling"... It did anything but that in the end, however it didn't stop the ambitious from trying after Hasbro released the system to the public in the mid 90s.
 
They say when one doesn't learn from history, one is doomed to repeat it so it's always a good idea to tell your story even though I might be comming off a little strong in a new forum like this. It's always good to hear another side of the spectrum and as you can probably guess from the rambling, I could go on and on about the many adventures in "Jaggy Land" as in BJL, behind JAGGY lines, get it... I've been thinking about selling my Jag collection and have already sold a few games on ebay; I even have the infamous first and second generation "Skunkboards". For what it's worth I've enjoyed the Jag for many years now and I've learned more about computers fooling with the Jaguar reading the tech manuals other tools Atari release to the programmers of the day. The Jag system (The Big Cat) can be quite a system to tame if you'r just starting out and does require prior programming knowledge. They say it's best to just start simply by learning C programming language, but you WILL have to know how to program in Assembler because the C tools Atari released to the programmers is in efficient unless you're using the 68000. The Jag GPU doesn't have access to the main RAM unless you create a work around, which does exist out there, but for C programming, you'll only have internal cache memory in the GPU and the DSP (sound chip) due to an unresolved hardware issue. I know the message I'm giving is a little generalized, but they are very much key to having some level of success programming that system; the Jaguar was really rushed out the door too soon in an effort to capture the market of it's time, but if Atari had put more time and effort in to the system and released it around 95 when the PS1 was released, it would've out performed Playstation and Saturn becuase of the 64bit blitter the Jag contained and the other processors as well. The game "Tempest 2000" is a wonderful example what the blitter was capable of using the GPU for the 3D and the Blitter for all of the special effects.
 
If the 68000 chip had it's internal memory like the other processors did, they would have given the programmers some head way to make up for any lost effeciency because the Atari Jaguar data bus is a bottleneck with all five processors sitting on top of it with the GPU having no access to main RAM without a work around. Some suggest the 68020 would've been a bit more expensive, but more appropriate because it having it's on intern memory in it.  But as you can see, I can go on and on, but it just shows the nature of the Atari Jaguar internal workings and I still didn't cover it all, but I hope this little information will be helpful in some way to someone.

So what you're saying is this:
 

 
 
 

Not really. Just that the 68020 would have had more power, hopefully the jaguar wouldn't have been so screwy to write for. An ease of programming would have lead to more 3rd party vendors and hopefully more great games. We're playing the "what if" game though..
 
Staying on topic, the Jaguar as it was, not what I wish it had been, meant a lot to me. It's a part of my youth and the lesson of "great graphics do not correlate to great games" as that commercial would have you believe, is a lesson I'll have with me for the rest of my life.

Welcome to the forums ptw-ace   I agree with your assessment of the 68000 chip. They say the Jaguar was designed for the 68020 and Jack Tramiel wanted to cut costs and demanded they go with the 68000. I'm not a historian and I don't know how much truth is in that, but the 68020 would have put the Jaguar over the top. For me though, as earlier, it all comes down to the games. What 3rd party support do you have, how many great games are there, and why should I buy this tech? I have a Panasonic 3DO-M2 Accelerator. It's a development console and I don't have any games to play with it. Without games processing power doesn't mean shiz. 

Hi my name Philip, but you can call me ptw-ace or just ace... That was my user name in previous Atari Jaguar forums. I've been thinking about selling my Jag. I've had since 2004 and have had a lot of great moments with the system and the Jag community. If I was mention everything, I'd have to write a four page topic on my experiences with the Jag and the community once existed. What I can tell is that for years people wanted to see new games released for the Atari Jaguar system and put tremendous effort in to doing so from creating the infamous "Skunkboard" where you can plug it in the cartridge and program the Jag via USB... But before then there was the "BJL or Behind Jaggy Lines" where you physically had to remove the Jags bios chip and replace with the BJL software and then program it from a PC or an Atari ST or an Atari Falcon if you had one. Songbird productions, which is still selling games for the Jag has a game called "Protector"... This game has a limited version of BJL on it when you press the zero button; the game was released I guess around 03 or 04, it could've been earlier, but it was at the time when you could program the Jag via printer "printer port to Jag controller port".
 
I myself, wasn't really a programmer and to this day, still don't know how to program like I should, but boy it's been quite the learning experience where if you stick around a thing long enough, you'll gain more understanding about a system then you had when you first started. Well... The Jaguar is infact a 64bit system because of the Blitter that was 64bit with a either 64bit bus or could produce 64bit output despite the other processors being 32bit (I always wind up going back to the tech manual for that info so don't take what I said too litterally, if you see anything wrong just correct me). Whatever the case the potential for the Jag to really be the next gen system of it's time was all there, but the Jag system design was riddled with bugs due to a poor system design. It was suppose to be a big shot 3D system, but the programmers, although could do 3D on it, would constantly run into problems and didn't really pin point the core causes of where the problem came from. The biggest problem that stuck out was the "Motorola 68000 processor" that would hog the systems BUS whenever it was in use... Latter the expert homebrew Jag programmers would conclude that the best way to take advantage of the system was to let the Motorola set the tone for the other chips to work and then cut it off, but being that the Atari community comprises of Atari ST enthusiast; a computer that also uses the 68000, would often beg to differ. Me personally thought it would be a waist of a chip to not use it for something, but I also believe that turning the chip off and using the other processors is probably right on point. For me I wanted to do a game for the Jag for sometime now, but real life demands required more of my attention then the Jag, which was the case for most people who wanted to make homebrew games for the Jaguar. My thing was the 2.5D games like "DOOM and Phase Zero"; no so much the game, but the pesudo 3D engine behind the game... The reason I believe most of Atari 3D games lagged so badly was because everyone was using the Motorola 68000 to handle game logic not truley realizing that the chip was actually slowing the system down; that's why games like Checkard Flag, Cybermorph, Missle Command 3D, and even some 2.5D games like AVP and "White Men Can't Jump" ran very slow because the main plan was understood to use the 68000 for game logic and let the other chips do all the 3D work; that's the way Atari sold it. The M68K was put in there to give people a quote "Warm and fuzzy feeling"... It did anything but that in the end, however it didn't stop the ambitious from trying after Hasbro released the system to the public in the mid 90s.
 
They say when one doesn't learn from history, one is doomed to repeat it so it's always a good idea to tell your story even though I might be comming off a little strong in a new forum like this. It's always good to hear another side of the spectrum and as you can probably guess from the rambling, I could go on and on about the many adventures in "Jaggy Land" as in BJL, behind JAGGY lines, get it... I've been thinking about selling my Jag collection and have already sold a few games on ebay; I even have the infamous first and second generation "Skunkboards". For what it's worth I've enjoyed the Jag for many years now and I've learned more about computers fooling with the Jaguar reading the tech manuals other tools Atari release to the programmers of the day. The Jag system (The Big Cat) can be quite a system to tame if you'r just starting out and does require prior programming knowledge. They say it's best to just start simply by learning C programming language, but you WILL have to know how to program in Assembler because the C tools Atari released to the programmers is in efficient unless you're using the 68000. The Jag GPU doesn't have access to the main RAM unless you create a work around, which does exist out there, but for C programming, you'll only have internal cache memory in the GPU and the DSP (sound chip) due to an unresolved hardware issue. I know the message I'm giving is a little generalized, but they are very much key to having some level of success programming that system; the Jaguar was really rushed out the door too soon in an effort to capture the market of it's time, but if Atari had put more time and effort in to the system and released it around 95 when the PS1 was released, it would've out performed Playstation and Saturn becuase of the 64bit blitter the Jag contained and the other processors as well. The game "Tempest 2000" is a wonderful example what the blitter was capable of using the GPU for the 3D and the Blitter for all of the special effects.
 
If the 68000 chip had it's internal memory like the other processors did, they would have given the programmers some head way to make up for any lost effeciency because the Atari Jaguar data bus is a bottleneck with all five processors sitting on top of it with the GPU having no access to main RAM without a work around. Some suggest the 68020 would've been a bit more expensive, but more appropriate because it having it's on intern memory in it.  But as you can see, I can go on and on, but it just shows the nature of the Atari Jaguar internal workings and I still didn't cover it all, but I hope this little information will be helpful in some way to someone.

I have a soft spot in my heart for the Jaguar. In fact, it's the only Atari console that I have a complete retail collection for. I bought my first Jaguar with Wolfenstein 3D and Raiden in 1994. Twenty years on, a Jaguar is always hooked up to a tv and regularly played. But what is it about the Jaguar - the last true Atari - that makes it so endearing?

As much as it was an epic commercial failure, the Jaguar also signified wide-eyed hope and optimism. It was Atari's 64-bit Hail Mary pass. You get the sense in reading the interviews with Sam Tramiel that Atari Corp. genuinely believed that they would be dancing in the end zone and send Nintendo, Sega and that upstart 3DO back to the lockers. I loved that about the Jaguar and I was on board.

As it was, the dream wouldn't materialize. Atari would become a logo for officially licensed product and Jaguar would be unduly maligned by countless adolescent you tubers hoping to be the next AVGN. But if you can get past the hate, there are number of great games on the system - many exclusive to the Jag.

Indeed, for every Checkered Flag or Double Dragon V there is an Iron Soldier, a Tempest 2000, a Rayman or an AVP. Better still, many great games continue to come out on the Jaguar twenty years later. Games like Skyhammer, Iron Soldier 2, and Zero 5 are all fantastic post Atari releases. Plus, there are a handful of active developers like Reboot, MD Games and Orion that are showing this cat has many, many more lives.

So Jaguar fans, what do you love about the last true Atari?