Atari 2600 or Atari 7800 - which one do you use for gaming?

[CrossBow]

On 10/10/2022 at 9:17 PM, socrates63 said:

Hey, Harry!

I'm with Rick. I use the 7800 for 7800 games only. I prefer to use the 2600 for 2600 games because (1) cartridges are easy to insert and remove on the 2600 compared to the death grip of the 7800, (2) some 2600 homebrews don't work on my 7800, and (3) the 2600 switches are easier to use.

I will say that when I got back into playing Atari games several years ago, I started with the 7800 since it's backwards compatible. However, not long after I started playing Atari games again, I ran into the aforementioned issues, so I got a 2600. Besides, the six switch 2600 is an iconic design.

Which 2600 'brews' didn't work on your 7800? Granted I've not played much less own all of them, but all the ones I've played and bought have never been a problem for me?

 

[socrates63]

13 minutes ago, CrossBow said:

Which 2600 'brews' didn't work on your 7800? Granted I've not played much less own all of them, but all the ones I've played and bought have never been a problem for me?

I didn't do an extensive test. IIRC Space Rocks is one that didn't work.

[CrossBow]

6 hours ago, socrates63 said:

I didn't do an extensive test. IIRC Space Rocks is one that didn't work.

Oh...that might be one that is effected by the extra timing circuit that some 7800s have. Disabling that part of the 7800 would likely correct the issue for you. I don't own that physically, but I know Space Rocks works in all of my flash carts I've used with my 7800. Well those that support games of that type anyway.

 

[juansolo]

Not a straightforward answer as I have an NTSC 7800 that's S-Video modded and a PAL 2600 that is RGB modded (so is essentially region free). The 7800 gets more use because I have a weird attachment to that thing for some reason. But I mostly play 2600 titles on the 2600 because it's got a better picture and I can never remember which of my carts are NTSC or PAL (just a button on the back to switch palette).

[juansolo]

On 8/26/2023 at 7:02 PM, CrossBow said:

Which 2600 'brews' didn't work on your 7800? Granted I've not played much less own all of them, but all the ones I've played and bought have never been a problem for me?

They're really variable. Cleggy's 7800 will play any 7800 title you can throw at it. I mean anything. There are odd things mine doesn't like. 2600 wise though it has bother with some of the homebrews where mine doesn't. Granted the NTSC 7800's seem way more compatible with 2600 homebrew than PAL ones. They're really finicky. Though we've got one that does play nice with most things (kept for that reason) that's a VERY early one. It's notcably better made (in terms of both the PCB and parts) than later ones which are almost all horrible to work on. The tiniest solder pads that just want to be sucked off the board with the slightest look at them, and often really poor quality solder too which really doesn't help matters.

[CrossBow]

3 hours ago, juansolo said:

2600 wise though it has bother with some of the homebrews where mine doesn't. Granted the NTSC 7800's seem way more compatible with 2600 homebrew than PAL ones. They're really finicky. Though we've got one that does play nice with most things (kept for that reason) that's a VERY early one. 

Though I can't test for it myself and I know you have access to it now, since I've seen mention of it being used in places where I know I never sold it... The Kiloparsec BIOS is supposed to have stuff in place to help with 2600 brew compatibility on PAL 7800s?

[juansolo]

6 hours ago, CrossBow said:

Though I can't test for it myself and I know you have access to it now, since I've seen mention of it being used in places where I know I never sold it... The Kiloparsec BIOS is supposed to have stuff in place to help with 2600 brew compatibility on PAL 7800s?

Once our burner lands we'll stick it in one for sure to try it and see.

[CrossBow]

30 minutes ago, juansolo said:

Once our burner lands we'll stick it in one for sure to try it and see.

i figured you already had it since that French guy on the AA forums stated he had one? It isn't a secret now that Bob has the entire thing hosted on github for folks to snag and burn them own so I figured that too was where you were getting it from.

 

[juansolo]

8 hours ago, CrossBow said:

i figured you already had it since that French guy on the AA forums stated he had one? It isn't a secret now that Bob has the entire thing hosted on github for folks to snag and burn them own so I figured that too was where you were getting it from.

Yup, as soon as he dropped it on there I grabbed it 😉 Will be doing some experiments with it (making a dual boot ROM ultimately with it and the Asteroids ROM on it). For no other reason than I can really. Plus I've a machine with a dead BIOS IC, so I need to write at least one regardless.

[CrossBow]

8 hours ago, juansolo said:

Yup, as soon as he dropped it on there I grabbed it 😉 Will be doing some experiments with it (making a dual boot ROM ultimately with it and the Asteroids ROM on it). For no other reason than I can really. Plus I've a machine with a dead BIOS IC, so I need to write at least one regardless.

Well, what isn't on that git hub is a newer version of the Kilo BIOS that should allow the BackBit Pro to work since it won't work with PAL BIOS, or the modified BIOS that have games included. But I've not tested it yet since I don't have an Eprom burner of my own.

 

[juansolo]

Haven't got a BBP, but that's good to know as my NTSC machine has the Asteroids BIOS in it currently so that wouldn't work either by the sound of it. I'll probably pick up a GD7800 when Saint has the fixes on it for RGB SCART. Tried one when it came with a machine to fix, really nice multi-cart. Makes life super easy and the RGB is a bonus.

[CrossBow]

9 hours ago, juansolo said:

Haven't got a BBP, but that's good to know as my NTSC machine has the Asteroids BIOS in it currently so that wouldn't work either by the sound of it. I'll probably pick up a GD7800 when Saint has the fixes on it for RGB SCART. Tried one when it came with a machine to fix, really nice multi-cart. Makes life super easy and the RGB is a bonus.

Yes I have one of the earlier run 7800GDs. But I can only get my Rad2x to work with it the best so far. I've actually just placed an order for another Rad2x that I can use with it dedicated going foward. Although I could try to filter down the sync signal off the encoder of the 7800GD using a resistor and capacitor as I've done on some consoles and run that to provide a new c-sync to see if that works better. I did try kill the trace between the sync and composite pin outputs on the cartridge and soldered a 75ohm resistor between them. I can get stable video, but the audio keeps dropping out so it still isn't quite good.

Cleggy also sent me a PM about your s-video output being too bright on your NTSC console? I've not encountered that myself so I'm not sure if it is something I will look for or not going forward.

 

[juansolo]

Yeah. It's not noticable on the BVM as it's a beast and will deal with it. On my PVM I was getting a bit of blooming with the stock UAV, a resistor on the luma line brought it down to the correct level, but we've recently traced it back to the IC that's causing it. When we do the doc for the PAL install of our current iteration of the AJM mod, I'll document it in there as it affects one of the resistors on the board depending on which IC your machine has fitted.

The new board we're kinda excited about. The PAL machine has always been a bit of a 'mare no matter which mod you do to it. We might have finally cracked it with a really simple mod (UAV is still better for most people on the NTSC, but I actually prefer it for that also). Once the next machine is done I'll have the installation documented. Then see how Karri gets on. I've a couple of other PAL users waiting in the wings to see how it all ends up.

[CrossBow]

7 hours ago, juansolo said:

Yeah. It's not noticable on the BVM as it's a beast and will deal with it. On my PVM I was getting a bit of blooming with the stock UAV, a resistor on the luma line brought it down to the correct level, but we've recently traced it back to the IC that's causing it. When we do the doc for the PAL install of our current iteration of the AJM mod, I'll document it in there as it affects one of the resistors on the board depending on which IC your machine has fitted.

The new board we're kinda excited about. The PAL machine has always been a bit of a 'mare no matter which mod you do to it. We might have finally cracked it with a really simple mod (UAV is still better for most people on the NTSC, but I actually prefer it for that also). Once the next machine is done I'll have the installation documented. Then see how Karri gets on. I've a couple of other PAL users waiting in the wings to see how it all ends up.

Yeah, in further discussion on this and in looking at a base sample of pics of 7800s I've done over the past 2 years. It seems that roughly 1 in 4 will have that 74x32 chip in them. And I've never noticed any issues with the s-video output that I could tell? So I'm curious if examples can be provided to show me the difference and exactly what value resistance was added and how it was added exactly?

 

Also, we are getting way off topic so this should likely be moved to its own dedicated thread and I can't apologize enough for that!

 

[sramirez2008]

My daily driver is my 7800. It was modified by...wait...for...it...CrossBow.🙂 It runs Space Rocks just fine.

[- Ω -]

😢 You left out the often maligned, living room worthy piece of artistic beauty, the totally awesome Atari 5200... so I cannot vote. 😢

[RickR]

3 hours ago, sramirez2008 said:

What a beautiful setup you have there!

[CrossBow]

1 hour ago, - Ω - said:

😢 You left out the often maligned, living room worthy piece of artistic beauty, the totally awesome Atari 5200... so I cannot vote. 😢

I think that is because at least for me... I don't consider the VCS adapter as being practical for playing 2600 games on.

And, your is AV upgraded and won't work with the VCS adapter anyway at this point. Or at least, it won't show a picture from the device since that doesn't go through the UAV.

 

[CrossBow]

4 hours ago, sramirez2008 said:

My daily driver is my 7800. It was modified by...wait...for...it...CrossBow.🙂 It runs Space Rocks just fine.

I just took at look at your main board pics, and that one does NOT have the extra timing circuit present. So I do think that Space Rocks is one game that is affected by the extra timing circuit being in place or not.

I didn't work on or sell @socrates63 the 7800 he is using, so I don't know what mods or work was done on his 7800. But again, I wonder if it has the extra timing circuit and if it still active in circuit.

 

[sramirez2008]

22 hours ago, RickR said:

What a beautiful setup you have there!

Thank you.

[sramirez2008]

21 hours ago, CrossBow said:

I just took at look at your main board pics, and that one does NOT have the extra timing circuit present. So I do think that Space Rocks is one game that is affected by the extra timing circuit being in place or not.

Thanks for confirming. I have a few 7800's. Don't know if its possible to identify the extra timing circuit by S/N, but this consoles S/N is A1 885456395. I also have an A3 9B1 5287646 and a couple of consoles with the expansion module (S/Ns A1 74 5825114 and A1 74 5787980).

[CrossBow]

15 minutes ago, sramirez2008 said:

Thanks for confirming. I have a few 7800's. Don't know if its possible to identify the extra timing circuit by S/N, but this consoles S/N is A1 885456395. I also have an A3 9B1 5287646 and a couple of consoles with the expansion module (S/Ns A1 74 5825114 and A1 74 5787980).

Can't really tell by SN no. Pretty sure the extra timing circuit started to show up in '87 made units. But it was only for about a year because most of the units I've had that were made in the way late 87 and '88 had the spots to populate the parts for the circuit, but bypassed it with a zero ohm resistor. So it seems to have been something that was only needed temporarily until they sourced other parts to align with each other better on timing to no longer require it is my best guess.

 

[CrossBow]

3 hours ago, sramirez2008 said:

Thanks for confirming. I have a few 7800's. Don't know if its possible to identify the extra timing circuit by S/N, but this consoles S/N is A1 885456395. I also have an A3 9B1 5287646 and a couple of consoles with the expansion module (S/Ns A1 74 5825114 and A1 74 5787980).

If you have Spiceware's Parrot bus stuffing demo, that will tell you pretty easily. that demo will NOT work on any 7800 I've seen with the extra timing circuit in place. It is a 2600 demo but runs even on the original older Harmony. So that is one program I use to test for it without taking the console apart.