Jack Tramiel and the ST Design

[RickR]

https://dfarq.homeip.net/why-jack-tramiel-left-commodore/

Some interesting information has finally started to come out regarding whether the Atari ST design was started at Commodore.  I don't know about you, but I always assumed this was the case since the ST was designed so quickly after Tramiel purchased Atari. 

It also re-animates the "what-if" story -- the way things should have been if not for poor management....The Amiga should have been an Atari product and the ST should have been Commodore. 

What do you all think?

[Atari 5200 Guy]

I once had an all beige C64.  While I liked the machine I hated the keyboard.  It felt mushy.  And no matter which ST model is owned they all have mushy keyboards.  The same with the XE line.

After reading that story it makes sense how the ST evolved from the C900.  It would make even more sense for those Commodore engineers to bring their hard work with them to Atari. I mean the next machine they was working on was their baby.  Why leave it behind?  

The ST also has that Commodore way of doing things.  Nothing really in house designed...everything off the shelf stuff.  The Amiga was more like having an XL on steroids. I've never seen an Amiga in person so my thoughts are based on YT gaming videos.  I'd like to have one just to experience it.

[Justin]

19 hours ago, RickR said:

The Amiga should have been an Atari product and the ST should have been Commodore. 

This is how I've always viewed it. Commodore lucked out in my opinion. Imagine Atari continuing under Warner with the Amiga chipset - had things gotten better financially - imagine the Amiga computer, the video game system, the arcade machine uses, etc.

The biggest "What if" is if Atari had gotten the next generation leap right from the 2600 to an NES-quality system, and had Warner never ditched Atari.

[socrates63]

First my apologies to the Commodore fans...

Being a loyal Atari user, I moved up from all the Atari 8-bit computers and bought the ST and use it a ton before switching to the PC. However, I never felt good about it because it was a Tramiel product. I know--it's dumb and irrational, but that's what being a fan(atic) is, right? 😂

Only a few years ago, I learned that the original Atari engineers designed the Amiga. Had I known that back in the day, I may have gotten the Amiga instead of the ST. Now in 2023, I decided to get an Amiga to see what I missed and bought Rick's Amiga 500 recently (need to figure out soon when I will pick it up from Rick before he changes his mind).

It's too bad the ST and Amiga did not dominate the computer scene. They were so far ahead of the PC.

[RickR]

18 hours ago, socrates63 said:

need to figure out soon when I will pick it up from Rick before he changes his mind

I won't change my mind, don't worry!  Anytime you are ready for pickup, just let me know. 

[Justin]

On 7/7/2023 at 6:30 PM, socrates63 said:

Had I known that back in the day, I may have gotten the Amiga instead of the ST.

I've come to feel the same way recently.

 

On 7/7/2023 at 6:30 PM, socrates63 said:

Now in 2023, I decided to get an Amiga to see what I missed and bought Rick's Amiga 500 recently

THAT'S AMAZING!! I LOVE IT!! It's great when I/O Members can connect like that!

 

On 7/6/2023 at 9:52 PM, RickR said:

It also re-animates the "what-if" story -- the way things should have been if not for poor management....The Amiga should have been an Atari product and the ST should have been Commodore. 

What do you all think?

I'm curious to hear what you think @RickR?

(And I'll also tag @MaximumRD because he's Lord of the Amigaites and I'd love for him to weigh in on this as well 😛)

[RickR]

8 hours ago, Justin said:

I'm curious to hear what you think @RickR?

Well, my thoughts are complicated. 

Back in the day, I had no bad feelings about Jack Tramiel, as all of his "cheapness" and shady business practices were unknown to most.  So I really liked that he was involved at Atari rather than see them wither and die.  Yes, it was sad that they'd be a computer company rather than a video game company.  But better than nothing.  After all, I loved Commodore.  I loved the VIC-20 I had and I really liked the Commodore 64 (even though I never owned one). 

The fast-tracked design of the ST was always hailed as an act of expertise -- almost a miracle.  It makes more sense now given more information. 

The people behind the Amiga design were unknown to me at least back then.  We knew there was an Atari connection since they were the initial "investor" that kind of got burned by Amiga in the end.  But now we know -- those were former Atari employees...more than that...the people behind a lot of the skunkwork design team.  Again, it makes more sense now given more complete information.  Amiga didn't "burn" Atari.  They were more a victim of Jack Tramiel's shady business practices. 

In any case, having owned BOTH as a retro-game collector:

• Atari ST - It absolutely feels like a Commodore machine.  Very well designed but also "cheap".  That was good back then because it was not too expensive to get one.  Cheap and capable.  It's no master of anything, but good at everything. 
  Gaming on the ST is really good.  It always reminds me of a Genesis as far as graphics and sound go.  BUT...No first party games.  Most games feel half-baked.  The big company releases (like Sierra games) are excellent.  Colorful, fast, and fun, with great sounds. 
   
• Amiga - It absolutely feels like an Atari machine.  Very elegant in design, both hardware and OS.  Much more polish than the ST.  Graphics and sound seem slightly better than the ST to me, and it feels like no other system at the time.  Unique. 
  Gaming on the Amiga is really great.  No first party support, but most games feel complete and well done.  A game like Buggy Boy (available on both systems) feels much smoother on the Amiga.  There's a lot of games that are available on both, and it's a lot of fun to compare. 

I won't pick a winner or favorite because they are both excellent.  Very similar in many regards.  Heck, they even LOOK similar physically.  Like siblings. 

As a collector, playing the ST makes me think of the Genesis (as mentioned) and I always end up going to play that system instead, since it has so many great games.  Playing the Amiga is much more unique.  You know it's the Amiga.  A feel all it's own, if that makes sense. 

I will say both were superior to the IBM PC's of the time.  There isn't anything the PC could do that these couldn't.  And the ST and Amiga were 1000 times better at gaming with no worries about compatibility or having to fiddle with settings. 

 

[socrates63]

When I transitioned from the ST to the PC and saw it running Windows 2.11, I thought I traveled back to the stone age. I had been using a polished GUI (GEM OS) and found Win 2.x to be practically unusable. But give kudos to Microsoft for keeping at it. 

[Jinroh]

On 7/9/2023 at 2:54 PM, socrates63 said:

When I transitioned from the ST to the PC and saw it running Windows 2.11, I thought I traveled back to the stone age. I had been using a polished GUI (GEM OS) and found Win 2.x to be practically unusable. But give kudos to Microsoft for keeping at it. 

I feel you there, I got a hand me down Tandy 1000 in 1990, from a family friend. I loved that machine, but man, CGA and PC speaker sound. The ST would have blown it away. STs were not common where I lived, everything was Apple, and IBM. We had a 400 in the mid-80s, but my parents were not computer people. We did not get a new PC until 1995 when my father bought one off the back of a truck. It was a loaded IBM Aptiva, full on multimedia powerhouse! I loved those FMV games. 😛

 

Since I learned more about the ST and its hardware in my later years, I love its simplicity. A beautiful design that does whatever you want it to. 🙂

Edited August 4, 2023 by Jinroh